Hmmm... I don't know. Spectre is the supposed wrath of god, as his supposed equal the Living Tribunal. LT was like scared of the Beyonder or something. I'll wait and see how the debate goes before I add my remarks.
I think Beyonder gets a little too much credit in this fight, even though I think it'd be good.
Yes, Spectre is DC's LT, provided he's taking orders from the Presense. And I have no idea why LT would have been scared of Beyonder...brief lapse in logic or something. Spectre takes it.
Simple. If were talking about Spectre not getting powers from The Presence and using his own, then the Beyonder will whip Spectre's ass. But if The Presence decided to get rid of Beyonder through Spectre, then Spectre wins, no contest. The only beings, IMO, that a full powered Spectre cant absolutely take is The Presence, TOAA, and The Great Evil Beast.
__________________ "You'd think part of omniscience would be knowing when to stop, but still..."
But when someone gets reconned its like how or what they were before just didnt exist. Beyonder isnt omnipotent anymore and according to the comics he never was. A full powered spectre would stomp on him.
In general I'm vary catious about words like "infinite" and "invulnerable" and "limitless"...comic books like to throw those words around too much. The Hulk, in theory, has limitless strength. But someone who can alter reality could simply will him out of existence. How infinite is that strength now? Power can be defined various different ways too (you have infinite power over your thoughts, for example) so it gets kinda muddy sometimes.
I'm inconclusive with the battle, but infinite is tagged to a lot of beings, but doesn't mean they are all equal in a particular category. Some characters just have higher base levels than others (i.e. Galactus to Silver Surfer), but potentially can just continue growing.
So Beyonder, by saying that Pre-retconned Beyonder will win against a full-powered Spectre, you mean that the PR Beyonder is more powerful than the Presence?
__________________ "You'd think part of omniscience would be knowing when to stop, but still..."
Well unless your assuming full powered Spectre is equal to Presence. I wouldn't put full powered Spectre even at LT's level. Spectre's power levels varies frequently. On average, he's a member of the JSA.
The only times we see him high on the cosmic chain is when there's a cosmic threat on a universal level. The Spectre that fought Parallax and Anti-Monitor IMO isn't the average Spectre. Even then, they still kicked his butt. I'm not sure if he's fully powered in those issues, but they handed him his butt. Emperor Joker did the same I think.
There's a belief that full powered Spectre = all the power of the Presence. I highly doubted. All those time he shows up to fight universal threats, he's on power levels above his average portrayals. If so and he's their as Gods Wraith to fix things on the behalf of the Presence, why'd Anti-Monitor or Parallax kick his butt? Or are we saying that Presence didn't want him to win, therefore didn't give him his full power. If so, why'd Spectre show up in the first place if Presence didn't want him to win?
Full powered Spectre has a limit to what Presence gives him. If he can't accomplish his task, then that's that. Full powered Spectre ain't Presence level. Could Presence give him it all? Sure why not? But as it stands, I think there's a cap on how much power Presence gives Spectre.
For starters, No, I dont believe that the Presence can(or should I say, will not) give the Spectre all his power, but I believe that he can give the Spectre powers above any beings in the universe. Theirs a difference between getting all his powers and getting powers that can beat any being in the universe.
Sure you can always bring the fact that Anti-Monitor, Parallax, and Emperor Joker, whipped his ass. But isnt it the fact that Spectre's powers come from the allmighty enough to explain that maybe there were complications which resulted in him losing to this beings? I mean, Superman did say that the Spectre has a tendency to be under people's noses, even when its not really his job. Maybe thats the reason why he lost, maybe the Presence didnt really want him to get involved in the first place, because there are other methods that can beat those 3, without having the Spectre getting involved. But still the Spectre intervened(remember that the Spectre doesnt always obey the Presence like Michael. Do you remember he questioned and rebelled against God many times before?)
The best evidence that I can give to you about the reasoning above is: when all hope was suppose to be lost when the Great Evil Beast appeared, who was the only person the Presence turned into hoping to finish TGEB? The Spectre. The Spectre did still lose, but that showed that when worst comes to worst The Presence will turn to the Spectre to finish the job.
Maybe Presence has a limit in giving the Spectre powers, maybe he doesnt have one, we dont know. But I will gladly retract my argument if it was really stated that there's a limit in giving the Spectre powers.
__________________ "You'd think part of omniscience would be knowing when to stop, but still..."
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Apr 12th, 2005 10:03 PM
