Batman is in hollywood and he sees Bruce Lee walkin' down the street, he is aware that there is a muggin' just takine plce a block from where he sees Bruce at. He asks Bruce if he knows anything about it.
Bruce doesn't know what he is talkin' about(or doesn't care), also Bruce looks at his costume and thinks he is crazy or something so Bruce tells him, "I don't have no muney four you or no dwugs four you mista, so weave me alone !"
Bruce quickly walks off to avoid an altercation, Batman jumps in front of Bruce, "I know you're lyin' you scum! You did it! Give me the money back now!"
Bruce Lee:"Get da **** away from me, man, you're cwazy!"
[Tries to grabb Bruce Lee, but Bruce Lee is incredibly faster than a any human and jerk away, while connecting a lightening fast counter punch that sends batman staggering back.
Holdin' his jaw, batman sees the blood drippin' from his mouth and can feel that a couple of his teeth are missing.
He shakes off the after effects of the punch, still feelin' alittle of the sting.]
Batman:"You mother****er! I'm gonna have to get ugly now!"
Bruce Lee:"I said weave me alone! or you will get hurt!"
Batman:"Bring it on, you Scum!"
Bruce Lee:"Don't say I didn't warn you!"
"Now I'm gonna have to hurt you, you costume fweak!"
Another moronic thread trying to compare a human to a comic book super-hero? I'd like to think you were joking, but you've proven many times over how full of shit you are.
You have a point. Bruce Lee was a real person whose abilities were so honed they seemed like they should belong in a comic book. He was that good.
Thus he wins by default.
Although the comic Batman SHOULD win since he knows 127 different styles (in real life it would not be possible to know virtually every single art, but again in real life it is not possible for a dude named Cyclops to fire plasma from his eyes, or some hombre in red skintights to run at near-lightspeed levels).
Thus comic Batman should beat Sifu Lee, after all the comic characters (even the 'normal' human ones like Batman) do interesting things like dodge a bullet (and many times in Batman's case evade many bullets through, erm, 'skill') that cannot happen in real life.
However Lee should win since he is, was, a real person whose abilities could have fit in a comic book.
In essence you could say if a movie was to be made on Richard Dragon, or Connor Hawke, Lee would be the man.
Lee wins by default, even though Batman, being a comic character, could be written to know any number of styles and such.
Spetz, I think I know what you're trying to say, yet we'll have to agree to disagree. Bruce is widely known as the greatest hand to hand combat fighter that has ever existed. In my mind, I can't see Wayne drawn up to be quicker than Lee, and this means more landed shots for Lee over time. Maybe, I'm biased too, but that's the way I see it.
Let's not forget too that Lee developed an art (still copied today), while Wayne has learned them.
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ok, before we get a little too far into chop socky land, let's return to reality for a second...
Bruce Lee was a good actor, and an even better martial theorist. He laid the foundation for the whole concept of mixed martial arts that dominate the martial arts world today. Before Bruce, there weren't very many people willing or able to mix and match techniques. His theories and concepts are widely seen as groundbreaking and have really elevated martial arts beyond its rather stiff roots into the modern combat principles that can really be effective for a lot of people.
That said, Bruce wasn't a great fighter. He may have eventually become a great fighter, but he wasn't. He lost or fought draws his most significant opponents in actual fights. One of those fights went on for 15 minutes and Bruce was EXHAUSTED. His opponent wasn't even a master - it was a senior student. Bruce had done so badly in that fight that he scrapped his made up style altogether (Jun Fan kickboxing) and started all over again, laying the foundation for Jeet Kune Do.
Another fight was against Gene Lebell, who pretty much grabbed him in the beginning and put him in a submission lock. Mas Oyama challenged him to a fight and Bruce declined. His reason? He was "mid-style" at the time and was still trying to develop his martial art, so he would have lost. Bruce promised he'd get back to Mas when he was done.
Never happened.
Bruce trained with really great martial artists to incorporate techniques into JKD, but he never actually got around to finishing the martial art. That's why if you look at the three master students of JKD - Taki Kimura, Dan Inosanto and Ted Wong - their JKD has nothing in common with each other. At all. Bruce was notorious for declaring his JKD "crap", closing his school, moving and starting again, leaving his students to wonder, "Did we just learn something bad?".
That's why, despite the fact that JKD is the "root" of mixed martial arts as we know it, nobody really takes JKD that seriously. It's a damn mess. It's not entirely Bruce's fault (he died before finalizing a style that he scrapped almost every year), but that's the way it is.
Maybe if Bruce Lee had studied a real style for more than four years (he only had four years of Wing Chun training, a year of mantis, and a couple of years of Filipino styles), he'd have a stronger set of fundamentals. But he didn't, and that made him a great theorist - ideal for teaching classes, building exercise equipment and writing books, but not much of a fighter.
I wouldn't give Bruce Lee odds in a fight against Muhammad Ali (Bruce himself said Ali would murder him). In a UFC event, he'd be ok in his weight class, but he wouldn't make the quarter finals against any of the top opposition there.
Again, I have to emphasize, I'm not knocking Bruce Lee in any way. I'm just being realistic here. His fighting concepts were groundbreaking, his speed spectacular, his training regimen top-notch, and his strength uncanny....back then. But martial arts have, on the whole, evolved past that, largely thanks to Lee. I have all the respect in the world for what he's given the martial arts world- "it's easy to look down on someone when you're standing on their shoulders". My own training incorporates understanding the five combat zones he discovered. But that doesn't give him a free pass as a combatant. The fact is, he'd get destroyed by most top fighters today.
And against Batman?
Lee takes 0/10
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Last edited by demigawd on Oct 26th, 2005 at 09:18 PM
hmm IMO i think this would be close even using "non-comic batman" the realistic batman, like off of batman begins....yes, Christian Bale's Batman vs Bruce Lee...lets say that scenario...and yall saw from the movie that batman was pretty badass considering he could take on 6-10 men in h2h combat, and some even armed with guns and take them all down......and bats is a ninja, which is a master of stealth, or as they refer to it, "invisibility", he has a tear-resistant/knife proof/partial bulletproof/300 grand Nomex survival suit, and a pair of some nasty-ass three bladed gauntlets on his forearms....having said that, bruce lee is the greatest martial artist to ever walk the face of the earth, can put up 750lbs on bench( or so ive heard because of steroids), made up his own forms of combat, and could probably kill you in one or two punches(a regular human with no armor)...........this would be a very close fight, and would be very entertaining IMO to watch...and i wish i could
I'm actually in agreement. The comic book Batman, who has mastered 127 different arts, would literally own Bruce Lee. After all this is a comic book character.
The only reason I put Lee there is just out of a mix of nostalgia (I wish dude was still alive and, well, kicking. Pardon the pun), as well as the fact that Lee managed to be so good that he might as well be a comic book character (there is a good chance that Shang Chi in Marvel, and Richard Dragon in DC, are based on Bruce Lee).
Thus, with all their capabilities put down, the mythical Batman would obviously beat up Bruce Lee.
But Lee, a man who actually lived and breathed, and honed his body to levels that wouldn't have to be tweaked that much were he to be made a comic book character, takes it in my book.
Yep, call it favoritism, for that is what it is 100%.
Glad you got what I was saying though.
Have a nice day.
I see you know of Mas Oyama. Not many people do.
That guy was a beast, and Kyushinkai (probably mis-spelt it) Karate is one of the more effective combat oriented Karate-do styles out there. I believe Oyama was the guy who used to practice techique on bulls.
Anyways, if Sifu Lee and Mas Oyama had ever fought, and I had been born then, I would have gladly taken out a mortgage just to pay for the fight.
Whoever won, or lost, and no matter how short the fight might have been, that would have been a classic.
you do realize that most mma fighters don't really have much more than fours years in one set style? Frank shamrock was kicking ass with conditioning a few years into his training. He dropped wing chun because it was impractical for real world application.
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Kyokushin.
Killed them in one shot. But given where he hit them, the feat of killing them wasn't impressive (it only takes 30lbs of force in that spot to do the deed), the fact that he maintained his nerve long enough to do it, however, was. Most lesser men would RUN.
Funny you should mention that. When Bruce declined to fight Mas, Bruce's old friend (and disputed inheritor of the Wing Chun style) William Cheung stepped in and challenged Mas instead. By most accounts, Cheung was the superior practitioner to Bruce, which is why Cheung was the prized student, even over Yip Man's two sons. At any rate, the two ended up fighting for close to 45 minutes. The fight ended up on the ground where Cheung mounted Mas and started landing unanswered shots. After only a few of these shots, Mas's students broke up the fight and suddenly declared it a draw. The official answer was that they had "deadlocked", because Mas was no longer in a position to injure Cheung and (get this) Cheung wasn't hitting Mas hard enough for it to hurt him.
"You're beating my ass, but I don't think it hurts, so I'll just get my students to pull you off of me and we'll call it a draw!"
Yeah, ok.
And it shows. Easily some of the worst technique I've ever seen with some of them. They win off of brawn, lucky shots, and groundfighting.
Bruce Lee said the same thing about Wing Chun, but most of them failed to understand that you don't get the practical stuff when you've only been training for a few years. You get the "wax on, wax off" stuff. That's how they prevented people from coming in with selfish motives, learning the techniques, then going out to the village and robbing people. You had to prove yourself worthy, mentally and physically, before you learned the good stuff. That generally doesn't happen until year five.
I remember talking to a JKD guy who, like all JKD guys, was pretty anti-Wing Chun. He had this whole speech worked out and talked about the limitations of Wing Chun that Bruce Lee "fixed". He showed me all year one stances and techniques. I was like, "Well, if that's all Bruce Lee knew, then of course he's going to find something wrong with it. It was INTENTIONALLY incomplete".
You make many salient points in your posts, and I agree with many of them.
And by the way I am a 'JKD guy,' as you put it, and have done it for 11 years. The only thing I have done longer is Shotokan (almost 16yrs of it), and while my highest grading is in Shotokan I consider JKD my primary art.
However I have nothing but respect for Ving Tsun, and when I came to the US around 6 yrs ago one of the first things I did was join a Ving Tsun school. Thus I have nothing but respect, and it is impossible to get me to say anything negative about the art. I particularly find the Chi Sao drills quite helpful.
And yes, there are many JKD students who look down on Ving Tsun. That is an open secret.
However the inverse is also true. There are many Ving Tsun students who think JKD is a joke (trust me it is not). Yet to this day none of the other students at the Ving Tsun place have been able to 'show me' how 'ineffective' JKD (and its principles) are.
What I have learnt is that any art can be effective, and any art can be a waste of time. It all depends on the student, the attitudes therein, and the teacher/sifu/shokan/soke.
You can find one 'expert' in Silat who gets his @$$ handed to him by some drunk brawler, and yet the same day see a simple 'student' of the same Silat who beats that same brawler, and his friend, to next tuesday.
It is something like math. There are good teachers, and there are good students.
Just because one student flops math (or as you say in the US, maths) doesn't mean arithmetic is obsolete. IT only means that the student did not diligently apply himself to the subject, or that the teacher did not teach the subject to a high degree of efficacy.
That simple.
The whole Ving Tsun is trash, or JKD is nonsense, is simply that .....nonsense.
I've used Shotokan to beat up some Taekwondo guys in my old country when they claimed that Karate was 'useless' and too slow; and at the Ving Tsun place a more advanced student (in VT) couldn't stop my offense that he claimed was 'only theory.'
The whole 'your art is silly' is best left to 1970s Chop-suey flicks.
Anyways, on Ving Tsun.
I only have respect for the art/style. It is very effective, but (like any art) its effectiveness depends on the student and how much effort the student puts into it.
Also depends on the teacher.
And the school.
For example something that always makes me laugh is how in the US you can see 13 yrd olds with blackbelts/blacksashes in (put any style here). That is ridiculous. Especially when you see those kids show their moves. It is as if they are still doing kumite ....and it is the street.
That is how people get beaten up, and how styles get mud smeared on them.
Children should not get blackbelts.
And a blackbelt doesn't mean a person is an expert. It only means that they have finished the basics and are now ABOUT TO START the REAL learning.
But for some reason the moment some 12 yr old can do a Kata and win kumite against some 10 yr old , then they become viable for a blackbelt.
Yet if they were to punch a REAL makiwara their knuckles would start bleeding and they would run home to cry to mommy!
On William Cheung.
I am amazed. I did not know he fought Mas Oyama. I will definitely have to research that so i can read on it some more (if you have any links that would be appreciated).
W. Cheung, who I can call Sifu in spirit, is definitely one of the giants. Especially when it comes to bringing GungFu to the US (and Europe ....in some ways more to Europe than the US).
Again, max respect for him.
Anyways DemiDawg, take this as a tip of the hat towards Ving Tsun from a 'JKD guy.' Bet you don't get to see that a lot.
people lets not forget that the style nightwing himself prefers to use is jeet kundoh, the martial arts that bruce lee developed in the first place. so doesnt any1 here think that the MASTER and CREATOR{and the highest belt owner eternally } of the style that nightwing uses would stand a decent chance against batman? batman is superhumanly agile in the comics{i know hes human but in the comics it is ike that}as in hes great at actually jumping and overall gaining acceleration. but i do think that lee, ion his moves and implementation{although less impressive} is much more faster n stronger than bruce wayne.
problem with even the best NORMAL martial artists is that even though theyr REALLY impressive n fast while practiscin they seem to be unable to reproduce ANYTHIN in a real fight, the most effective moves, and mental or physical counter measure{its actually funny how awkward and clumsy the graceful athletic martial artists get once they actually start fightin} thas why they lose, bruce lee on the other hand really is an acception to this, he didnt care about showin off, he just cared about the most affective way to do stuff, n thas the whole spirit of jeet kundoh really.
irrelivent, Nightwing can't land one hit on Batman.
This was proven in Bruce Wayne Murder, Nightwing punched Batman once, Batman said "First one is free, the next one will cost you." As he always says. then Nightwing punched him again, and then Batman started leaping and dodging and occasionally swinging and knocking down Nightwing for the next two or thee pages. Lopsided fight.
Last edited by Juntai on Oct 27th, 2005 at 09:16 PM
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