regular thor= probably a stalemate, slight edge to marvel team (MM is the weak link here, he can only maintain superman levels for short periods of time)
With Thor at "normal" power, slight edge to marvel team.
They're outnumbered but the DC team has exploitable weaknesses where the marvel team does not.
Superman= Very vulnerable to red solar radiation and kryptonite radiation
MM= still has a fire weakness, can't maintain peak power levels for long.
Surfer is not only substantially faster than anyone on the DC team, but is also versatile enough to exploit either of these weaknesses immediately, evening up the numbers.
Gladiator is basically superman as long as confidence isn't an issue (I'm assuming it's not, most forum battles assume "full confidence gladiator") and can go head to head with either superman, WW, or green lantern without a problem. MM would be torn apart in short order.
Thor is slower than most of the opposing team (depending..some scans have him traveling at lightspeed) but he has incredible durability and strength, a magic hammer that can absorb energy, and that Godforce is sufficient to knock out anyone on the opposing team in one shot if it's used.
I'd give the marvel team 6 or possibly 7 out of ten.
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Re: SS, Thor & Gladiator vs.....
DC in a Stomp. Thor, Surfer and Glads are all subject to a severe mind rape at the hands of Superman, Wonder Woman and MM. Any GL would be able to exploit Gladiator's weakness to that wierd Radation. MM can Mind attack while phased Weakening any opponent WW fights. While Superman Dominates Thor with Uber Speed. Hal Stalemates Surfer or Beats him in a hard fought battle. MM tips the battle in DC's favor. Or MM depowers Glads to nothing it's 4 on 2.
1.) Surfer, Thor, and Gladiator all have resistance to mental attacks. ESPECIALLY surfer. "mind rape" won't get you very far when your opponent can shrug off attacks from the most powerful psionic weapon in the universe. (surfer vs. moondragon with mind gem)
2.) Gladiator has a weakness to a certain wavelength of radiation but this is not common knowledge (as it is with superman and kryptonite) and GL's do not possess cosmic awareness to know what it is and how to reproduce it, as surfer does.
3.) Superman can't dominate anyone with speed. Surfer and gladiator are both faster than he is. Much, Much faster. In this particular fight, surfer has the initiative to move before anyone else does (as he's the fastest, with gladiator being second fastest- both can exceed light speeds) and has the means to take out or severely weaken MM or Superman.
4.) how exactly is MM going to depower gladiator? Oh, BTW Thor and surfer can both hit phased beings with ease. There goes THAT theory.
And thor isn't slow by any means. he's the slowest here, but easily capable of hitting speeds of escape velocity or higher when he needs to.
DC is at a disadvantage here. not a huge one, but Thor, Gladiator, and Surfer have a slight edge.
superman has flown at light speed on several occasions, but even with that in mind, his combat reaction time is as quick as anyone on the marvel team if not superior... he's not going to be speedblitzed by anyone...
also, Gl rings can be set to react if anyone reaches a certain speed coming towards it...
At light speed is one thing. surfer has gone half a million light years in SECONDS. that's several orders of magnitude faster. Superman is Not This Fast.
I'm aware green lanterns have autoshields, but Manhunters do not. If MM's telepathy is the biggest threat here (and I doubt it is, but for the sake of argument) he's going down first to surfer and easily, due to his vastly slower speed and the whole fire weakness thing. Surfer can also phase and hit phased objects, so phasing won't really help.
that limits the field almost immediately to 3 on 3, and in a fight with surfer-thor-gladiator and superman-GL-WW, I'd give it to the marvel team though by a slim margin. it really depends on strategy and who fights most intelligently.
Last edited by Space M ummy on Aug 13th, 2007 at 10:34 PM
1. Resistance doesn't equal immunity. There are far too many instances showing Thor and SS getting mind rape or at least being seriously affected by mental powers. At least MM can slow them down enough for the others to seriously messed them up. And Superman can do this while he is blitzing them.
2. Doesn't matter. Even if kryptonite is common knowledge about superman's weakness then I don't see SS knowing how to make it just because of its name. The same is if I tell you that I'm weak to puducvi, you still wouldn't know what it is made out of to make it. And cosmic awareness doesn't give SS that power to know either (Read defn of cosmic awareness). In the comic where SS says he know what radiation that Gladiator is weak to doesn't prove that SS was telling the truth or his actual means of him it finding out. Thus it is not known if SS can find how to make kryptonite. And red solar radiation to weaken superman is not common knowledge.
3. It has been proven by other threads and also on panel that both SS and Gladiator don't move that fast in a battle situation. This is because traveling speed is not battle speed. For Gladiator and SS to even exceed the speed of light they have to accelerate through hyperspace (fact). And it has been shown that this takes several moments to do. Thus in a battle situation of proximity they would not only be fast enough to move at Superman's speed but they still wouldn't have the reflexes to stop Superman or Diana from attacking (Remember speed doesn't equal reflexes).
Superman is the fastest here by far. And Diana has arguably the best reflexes here (slightly edging out Superman in second).
4. Mind rape is everything when one is outnumbered by super fast beings. At least this would slow them down by them trying to fight the mind rape, which is more than enough for Diana to lasso SS and Superman to pummel thor. Then the Hal can easily handle Gladiator.
Honestly and objectively I don't see any way Marvel deals with D.C's speed and mind rape strategy. Let alone even without the mind rape I don't see Marvel with the fighting speed and reflexes to stop speed blitz's by Supes and Diana.
Wrong. Surfer is not only highly resistant to telepathic attacks (again, from the most powerful psionic force in the universe) he's a telepath himself. MM isn't that strong- he could barely mind control the joker for more than a couple seconds. He's going to be less than nothing to someone who can shrug off the effects of an infinity gem.
Thor is highly resistant, and so is Gladiator. this is a dead end.
Er, first of all- cosmic awareness DOES give surfer the knowledge of strengths and weaknesses as well as how to exploit it. This is canon, and he demonstrated this against Gladiator.
It's the ONLY reason why anyone knows Gladiator even HAS a radiaton weakness, because Surfer Said So. If he wasn't telling the truth, (which would be pointless) Gladiator or lilandra would have just told him he was wrong and KOed him. This didn't happen. and as for "not knowing how to replicate it" surfer is quite possibly the most experienced energy manipulator in marvel. If it's possible, he'd be the one to do it.
also, more of the same-
instantly senses specific details about people(like their race and any powers they have)
[url]http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5489/cospowunlim199600411no5.jpg[url]
and are you new here? Everyone and their grandmother knows about superman's weakness to a red sun. If you have any questions about what is and is not "common knowledge" on the boards, ask a mod. This isn't even up for debate.
Mind rape isn't a possibility when the entire team is extremely resistant, and the telepath is significantly slower than 2/3rds of the team. And diana lassoing SS? good luck with that, she's nowhere near as fast as he is. Again, see the speed feats.
maybe you're new here? Surfer is faster than both superman and diana by quite a bit, and gladiator is at least as fast if not more so.
nice try, but this post was made of Fail and Wrong from the get go.
Last edited by Space M ummy on Aug 13th, 2007 at 11:48 PM
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: SS, Thor & Gladiator vs.....
You do realize that Superman has gone far far faster than Light. And that WW has speed blitzed Amazo, Tagged Zoom, and Entered the speed force under her own power. So Where is this vaunted combat Speed advantage Surfer and Gladiator have? Also, MM has Superspeed as does GL. Thor Does NOT. And Moondragon with the Mind gem is a big JOB BER. when you show me her doing something impressive, then I'll think surfer resisting her is something to write home about. MM doesn't phase as you think either. He completely removes his essence. At any rate, he can completely depower Gladiator in less than a second by taking all of his confidence. Then what are surfer and thor to do against 4 uber powerful beings? Lose. That is what they will do.
Superman has not gone anywhere close to the speeds surfer has. if you have scans of him going a half million light years in a couple seconds or faster I'd love to see it.
I have the comic where wonder woman "tags" zoom. nice try. she admitted she wasn't as fast as he was and had to try to anticipate where he WOULD appear and lasso there first. Not a speed feat, just good strategy.
I'm aware jonn has superspeed, but he's not as fast as Surfer or Gladiator by any means.
I don't think YOURE aware that Thor DOES have superspeed, and there are scans of him flying at light speeds under his own power in the respect threads. even so, I admitted he was probably the slowest here.
No one has ever been shown to "take all of gladiator's confidence" by psionic means. if you have a scan, I'd love to see it, otherwise you're full of it. and I'm sure while he'll have lots of fun trying in the fraction of a second before he's lit on fire by the power cosmic or gladiator's heat vision.
If they are so highly resistant to mind attacks then please explain there struggles against much weaker mind attacks before. I'm not saying that MM or Superman would mind rape them. I'm just saying that they would at least cause SS and Thor to falter at least an instant because of it. And that is all it would take.
And why do you use Gladiator's example when I rebutted it before you can bring it up? I said the scan doesn't show how SS knows his weakness. But you do make a good point so it is feasible that he is telling the truth. But there is no proof that he senses it. And even if he did, that doesn't automatically prove he can do the same for Superman.
But even if I'm wrong here then my argument at the bottom makes this moot.
And SS sensing the people in the scan you showed is part of his Cosmic awareness. Which allows him to sense beings in his vicinity (even light years away). It doesn't prove he can sense someone's weakness though. But maybe he can.
You mistake me. Yes, I and everyone (in the real world) do know that Superman is weak to red solar radiation (And I'm not new here). But that is not common knowledge. For common knowledge isn't what we know but what the characters in the comic know. Every character in D.C. knows Superman is weak against Kryptonite. But only a few know that red solar radiation is his weakness too.
And you mistake me again. I'm not arguing that SS isn't fast in battle or doesn't have super reflexes. SS is even faster than space wind. I'm arguing that he is nowhere near as fast as Superman in a battle situation (as far as battle close proximity acceleration). Or that SS has the reflexes to stop Superman from blitzing him. Showing him dodging Hulk is nothing, for even Spider-man can do that. And please do not prove to me that SS has fast traveling speeds. I along with everyone in existence concur to that. But it has nothing to do with his immediate acceleration from rest or his reaction to move from rest. That is why he gets hit by much slower attackers in battle like a day job.
The scan of him rescuing them from the bubble doesn't show uber speed but only super speed. For a mere bullet can move a greater distance than he moved in .7 seconds. But after 1 second he was probably light speed (or faster) and moving much faster than a bullet. But my argument is that it takes him too much time to accelerate from rest to FTL speeds (in the eyes of Superman of course) and in which 0.7 seconds to Superman is like an eternity. That is why traveling speed is not battle speed.
And SS has cosmic awareness. He can sense beings many light years away. The scan doesn't show SS actually looking everywhere on the planet. He could have just went a few miles out and used his cosmic awareness and came back to Strange and Hulk.
And for the evading the alien ship:
Evading an attack implies that one has to move faster than the reaction times of the attacler (and not the attack). For I can evade bullets (if I'm lucky) but that doesn't mean I have the reaction times of a bullet or the speed of one.
And in the next scan. It just shows SS as time goes by. For all we know, it could have been 2 seconds that passed in that one panel. The scan only shows super speed and reflexes but not how much of it. For cap, batman, and spider-man all have plenty of scans showing multiples of themselves in one panel. Doesn't prove that they are moving faster than light does it?
And the next scan doesn't prove he has nano second reaction times.
He is obviously using hyperbole for he constructed an entire sentence in his head (which takes at least several seconds to do so). And don't tell me he uttered that sentence in his head faster than a nanosecond. For hyperbole does exist in comics (fact) and SS got struck many times by much slower than nanosecond attacks more times than I am years old.
And Diana has lassoed Zoom before (the guy who f%$ks flash up).
But since I think we won't agree to the things above then this is how it would at least still be a win for D.C. So don't argue anything in the above (unless i'm terribly wrong about something). But please argue about the below.
Plan A:
1. MM tries to mind rape SS in the first instant. In that same instant, while SS is trying to resist it, WW lassos him at the speed in which she lassoed Zoom.
2. Superman blitzs Thor and wins by KO.
3. And GL Hal and MM then easily beats Gladiator (or at least hold him off until Superman gets there).
yes, he's flown at that speed, but what about combat reactions? superman is arguably superior in that respect...
manhunter isn't so slow as to not see the surfer coming, at the very least his advanced telepathy would warn him... and how do we know his phasing works on the same principles as surfer's?
if it did get down to 3v3, then sure, i'd say marvel would take it, but only because of Diana...
I forgot something.
Zoom slows down time in his own time reference. Which makes him super fast in normal time's reference. Now if he's manipulating time then he should have easily seen that that lasso was moving in slow motion and could have easily dodged it by avoiding it. But he was nabbed by it. Thus proving that the lasso was moving as fast as him or faster.
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Aug 13th, 2007 07:19 PM
