Well here we are, the first Battle Zone fight. I'll ask all non participants to refrain from posting in this thread because this is a solo debate between TricksterPriest and myself. This is a non-official, standard match where TricksterPriest will represent classic Darkseid, and I'll be representing classic Thanos. Here are some of the specific details of the match...
Darkseid-Trickster is allowed to use all of DS's printed Pre Seven Soldiers arc(no Seven Soldiers showings though) because technically there's only one Darkseid in DC. The only limitation to this, is alternate versions of DS from future timelines(such as the GDS) as per Forum Rules.
Thanos-I will be allowed to use all of Thanos's canon appearances, including the showings of Thanos's LOW LEVEL clones. When I say low level I mean the "standard" Thanos clones that are often mistaken for him, but not clones like Omega or X which are DNA amalgams of Thanos and another character.
Now here's where it gets tricky because rather than just try to convince the judges that our characters would win the majority in a fight between the two, Trickster and I have a some special victory conditions for this fight. Trickster's goal is to convince the judges that Darkseid is completely out of Thanos's league, and that Darkseid would beat Thanos in a forum match 10/10. My goal on the other hand is to show that the two are closer in power than most are willing to give Thanos credit for, and convince the judges that Thanos could win at least one match out of 10 between the two. So it's basically an "all or nothing" affair, because in the end it comes down to whether or not it's POSSIBLE for Thanos to win.
With all that being said, since most are regarding Trick as being the underdog in this match I'll let him present his case first(and the time of his first post will mark the beginning of the 24 hour time limit)...
(Just FYI even though I included a poll, it won't be taken into consideration as far as the match winner goes(because of possible sock interference). I'm only including it so people can put their two cents in without having to spam the match. But I'll still ask people to refrain from voting at least until we get a chance to present our initial arguments.)
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Last edited by darthgoober on Sep 26th, 2007 at 09:00 PM
Hey Trick, you DO realize that this is a standard match, not a tourney style match right? You don't have to come up with a big opening post or anything, this is basically a regular debate. The only differences are that we won't have people butting in, and an actual "winner" will be decided. So you can start saying why you think DS takes 10/10 whenever you're ready...
Gender: Male Location: Hiding from The Doctor, shhhh.....
It's showtime.
Ikuze. (Let's go).
First off, Darkseid is generally underrated on this forum. People tend to compare him to Thanos, when in reality, he's around Odin's level, if not greater.
Let's start with a few feats.
The text is a little hard to read, for which I apologize.
PC Validus, a beast beyond beasts in PC days. This monster was so powerful, it took 4 PC krytonians to bring him down. On occasions where his rage was focused, even the LSH had trouble with him. Even Karate Kid, PIS machine, couldn't stop him and barely dodged the mental lightning.
and barely escapes with his life. Incidently, the only reason Supes got away from the OE in that last panel was because he used the Entropy Aegis as a shield.
The Aegis was created by Darkseid, using an Imperiex probe, Apokolips tech, and the power of Entropy. Via the probe, it could tap all of Imperiex's power.
Which is a prep feat for DS.
Sleez, a native of Apokolips, explains how the OE's teleportation works. "For an instant that seemed an eternity, I was less than nothing. But I was not destroyed. Instead, I found myself transported": http://www.imagestation.com/picture...7c/f9e5b5a6.jpg
Before I post this next one, I'm going to give a little context. In this next part, Darkseid *****-slaps the Infinity Man. Now, Infinity man is easily a match for Thanos. Part of that, is because he's Darkseid's own brother, Drax. Drax was the originally destined to harness the power of the Infinity Pit, where Uxas received his Omega Force and took his nom-de-guer, after killing his brother supposedly. Drax was given the powers of the Infinity Man and could be summoned by the Forever People.
In this part, Supes is having trouble fighting Darkseid's automatons. So, the Forever People summon forth Infinity Man again. Infinity Man has a much easier time against the droids, but gets whupped by DS again, and mentions that he cannot resist the Omega Effect. http://www.imagestation.com/picture...c4/f9e5bc88.jpg
Ok, now show me the feats that actually put that guy at PC Supes level beyond being a "PC Daxamite".
Validus was definitely a beast, but what does that have to do with DS? I know that DS created Validus, but when you think about it that doesn't necessarily mean a whole Hell of a lot. Galactus can create heralds that are faster than he, so why are you so convinced that DS HAS to be as strong/durable as Validus was, when he doesn't really have the feats to support it?
Didn't Supes just finish fighting a bunch of Imperiex Probes and New Gods when that happened?
You and I both know that you don't want to get into a "prep showings" comparison when Thanos is involved .
I fail to see what a bunch of scans about DS teleporting people has to do with this. If he teleports Thanos, Thanos will teleport back.
Again, it's just teleporting. Thor can teleport Juggernaut and the Destroyer with ease, so does that automatically mean that he can deliver an actual beatdown to them?
Ok now I guess it's my turn. Now I know that the majority of people consider Supes standing up to DS to be nothing but PIS, but I want everyone to take a look at what Tron(the guy who put the KMC rules in place originally) says about PIS...
Pretty simple concept right? If it happens often enough, it's not PIS. So let's take a look at some of the times Supes has taken on DS one on one, and see how many there are...
Wow. That's five instances of Supes doing just fine against DS when they're both in decent condition at the start of the fight, and ONE instance of DS manhandling Supes(which Trick posted) just after Supes took down a bunch of Imperiex probes and New Gods. Given the amount of instances it's happened, I think it's safe to say that Supes victory's no longer fall under the "PIS" category.
So DS being able to be taken down PHYSICALLY by Supes no longer falls under the heading of PIS because it’s happened to often for it to fall under that heading. Now that doesn’t mean that DS is unable to take down Supes using his more exotic abilities(telepathy, BFR, etc.), it just means that it IS within Supes’s ability to take DS down in a fist fight under forum rules. So the question becomes whether or not it should be assumed that DS actually USES those exotic abilities every time he’s involved in a forum battle. For the answer that question, take a look at this…
No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.
Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.
So if he limits himself then it’s his own damn fault for losing, it’s only BS when he conveniently “forgets” about his other abilities. So is DS the type to limit himself, or is he the type to use every ability to the fullest all the time? Well for the answer to that take a look here…
See Darkseid is the kind of guy that actually LIKES to get in there and mix it up man to man. That’s why he uses all that exotic stuff against the JLA as a group, but when Supes wants to try to go at it one on one DS it’s mostly h2h. But the thing is according to forum rules that behavior is still valid, because it’s “in character” for DS to behave that way.
So with DS covered, let's move on to the capabilities of Thanos. Well first off I find it funny that Trick went and said that DS was closer to Odin's level than Thanos's. Why you ask(not really, since you all know where I'm going with this)? Because we actually have a Thanos vs Odin fight to take into consideration...
Keep in mind, that was Thanos BEFORE his upgrade in "The End", and Odin(who according to Trick is right on par with DS) was unable to put him down. Of course AFTER Thanos's upgrade, he was significantly more powerful. Here let's compare...
And just for comparison, let's take a look at the effect DS has on a HUNGREYGalactus... (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
Now I know what you're all thinking, "it's a crossover, it's not canon"...wrong. Remember, there's only ONE DS in DC and ANY printed appearance of his current character is valid. So even though that never really happened to Galactus, it DID happen to DS.
Basically this is what it all comes down to...
1. DS has NEVER erased anyone on Thanos's level(with Thanos's durability) with the OE.
2. DS's "Omega Powers" while impressive, have been dealt with by Supes(several times), Wonder Woman, Firestorm, and Ryker(the GL) and Thanos trumps ALL of them with ease.
3. Thanos has better base durability, forcefields, and energy output than DS, and a better track record against herald level characters in single combat. DS may ghave more instances of teleporting the opposition away(which won't work on Thanos), but Thanos has a better record as far as delivering a beatdown goes.
So with all that being true, how is it possible that DS is going to pull 10/120 from Thanos? Simple....it isn't.
Gender: Male Location: Hiding from The Doctor, shhhh.....
I wasn't saying he's as strong or durable as Validus. Just that he's powerful enough to beat Validus, Thanos isn't.
Wrong fight. that was later on.
The heart doesn't count, and all the things he did in the IG saga are easily duplicatible by DS. Let's see Thanos stop Ares w/e the Godwave with his prep time.
The OE's teleportation involves being erased first. IE: They survived it only by Darkseid's discretion. I posted those scans to explain how the teleportation by the OE works. You get erased, then reformed elsewhere. http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?...6jpgorig7xv.jpg
3 was when Darkseid was weakened from using his power to boost Supes who broke Imperiex's armor. He still stalemated Superman.
4 was Apokolips Now. Apokolips Now was just a bad showing, and despite the craptacular writing, I can't say anything against it.
5 was S/B and had many extenuating circumstances. First, Wondy deflected the OB back at Darkseid. Second, Supes had a sun-amp. Third, Supes had a motherbox. and 4th, Jeph Loeb was writing.
2nd, you'll find that the only times Darkseid loses to a top tier that badly are to Superman. No other top tier gets anywhere near as much as Supes. You're refusing to acknowledge his massive jobber aura. you're also using characterizations from H/P, written by Dan Jurgens, a man who has no concept of Darkseid's character.
2. Supes was covered, and you forgot the jobber aura. Wondy's shield blocks just about anything. Firestorm is the only person in the history of DC to manipulate the Omega Force. Darkseid let Raker live.
And don't bring Nvr's reasoning into this. It's a crossover, thus, not canon. And even it wasn't, it's freaking Galactus. Note the illustration of the OE affecting DS. It did work, Galactus just willed himself back. The white silhouette is the OE's effect on a being, as has been depicted for years.
I think a more accurate statement would be that DS has the ability to take back power that he bestows upon people. And before you make the unfounded claim that Thanos couldn't take down Validus, you should show his resistance to the things in Thanos's arsenal(like mind raping, life absorbtion, etc).
Huh?
Why doesn't the End count? And for that matter, I didn't mention anything from the End OR the IG saga. All I mentioned was that Thanos was upgraded after the End, and he was(as acknowledged by the Thanos series, and his superior feats after that arc).
As for Ares w/Godwave...
Thanos has PERSONALLY aquired multiversal power given prep, which is far supperior to just stalling someone like Ares.
PROVE that he's actually able to erase everyone that he teleports. Just because someone thinks it "feels" like they don't exist anymore, that doesn't mean that they were temorarily erased(it could be the comic book equivelnt to motion sickness for all we know). I actually started asking around about that little "forum rumor" and you know what I found out...
It's all fan based speculatory interpretation of a SINGLE instance. So what actual PROOF do you have to support that theory?
Ok I saw DS talking to Desaad about impersonating him, but I never saw him mention that fight in particular. I DID see a single panel of Supes fighting DS that COULD be this particular fight, but I saw nothing concrete to that effect.
Inconclusive my ass. If you count DS teleporting his opponents away as wins in DS's favor, then that instance qualifies as a BFR in Supes favor.
So Supes obviously wasn't in tip top condition either, since he'd been battling Imperiex right? So they were both weakened, and came out about even in their fight together. Still not looking good for DS...
Good to hear you admit.
Don't most people have to fight through DS's armies and such before they get face to face with DS(I know for a fact Supes has several times)? Does that mean that we write off DS getting the best of those people because of the "extenuating circumstances"?
You said it yourself "that badly". Supes does better than most, but then again he's one of the biggest guns in DC. Of course someone like Ryker isn't going to do as well as Supes, because Supes would kick Ryker's ass.
Yeah....now where are the durability showings that put them on par with Supes?
And just so you know, yes Lobo is supposed to be unkillable but the thing is that Lobo regenerates, while Supes just resist damage. Lobo DOES have impressive durability no doubt, but he gets hurt A LOT more than Supes(he just heals the damage he's taken).
So DS's statement makes it factual? Villains say that kind of thing all the time Trick, are we supposed to take EVERYTHING the villain says at face value?
Isn't that from the Rock of Ages, which takes place in the future? And for that matter, isn't that the same arc that DS got beaten by the Atom?
Don't you mean its target, WW's braclets, heatvision, and the force field Ryker slapped over DS's head? Do you have any scans of it bypassing a forcefield that's capable of withstanding a blast from someone like Galactus? Anyway, I'm not even trying to say that Thanos will dodge the OE, I'm just not convinced it'll take him out. We're talking about someone who...
A. Has a forcefield tough enough that Galactus has to exert himself to bust through.
B. Has arguably the best durability in comics.
C. Is completely barred from Deaths Realm, which makes him immortal for all intents and purposes.
D. Has energy blast FAR supperior to Heatvision(which has deflected the OE before).
Byrne's Supes you mean(who later goes on to kick DS's ass in fact). Thanos can deal with the speed of guys like Surfer and the Fallen One, both of which surpass Byrne's Supes in speed.
You act as if DS owning some random "Gods"(and DEAD Gods at that) really means something or is something beyond the capabilities of Thanos... (please log in to view the image)
It's not just nvr's reasoning. You yourself have been a fan of the "only one DS" theory which means it's your reasoning too. And prove that it had an effect. That's never stated in any way, shape, or form. The only POSSIBLE indication is the color scheme, which is reaching to say the very least. On the other hand, there's no denying the effect that Thanos's blast had on Big G. And just so it stays in everyone's mind, Big G was HUNGRY(more than he'd ever been in fact) when DS hit him. He was pretty well fed when Thanos blasted him.
What the Hell does DS beating a bunch of no name Gods through some undisclosed method prove? Do you take the statement that Sentry fought Galactus to a standstill at face value(be honest)?
Not by a long shot Trick.
And something else just occured to me. Remember the fight between Byrne's Supes and DS? Well take a close look at this particular panel... (please log in to view the image)
DS himself says that if he weren't able to resist the OE, his body wouldn't be able to contain it. That means that if it couldn't be resisted via durability DS never would have gotten it in the first place because it would have destroyed him.
So let's see...
A.The OE has been flat put resisted by Supes, Doomsday, and DS himself through nothing more that durability(which Thanos has in abundance).
B. It's been deflected/blocked by Supes, WW, Ryker, and Firestorm.
Hmm...I still see it being something that Thanos could deal with.
Gender: Male Location: Hiding from The Doctor, shhhh.....
Goober, I'm going to give you a chance to back off something. Either you back off from using the Hunger, or I bring in GDS, 7 soldiers, etc. You said any DS appearence is canon? Guess what, you just changed the rules and gave me the opening to use those.
So back off from the Hunger, or I pull out GDS.
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Pre Seven Soldiers was the version we agreed on for this match, and GDS is an alternate future which means that it's not canon to DS's current character. Both of those things were specifically talked about, but other than those I ok'd your using ANYTHING with DS in it remember...
So sorry, but I have no intention of letting YOU change the rules that we've already agreed upon. If you want to forfeit though because you can't win without ignoring specifically agreed upon match conditions though that's fine with me....
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Last edited by darthgoober on Sep 27th, 2007 at 03:12 AM
Gender: Male Location: Hiding from The Doctor, shhhh.....
"because technically there's only one Darkseid in DC."
So you're trying to claim Thanos from a crossover is equal to Darkseid?
and that the Hunger, a non-canon crossover, is somehow canon to Darkseid.
So what evidence have you got that puts this crossover Thanos on par with regular Thanos?
I was fine with all of this. Hell, even losing wouldn't have bothered me much. But bringing out non-canon crossovers to prove your point?
You're violating your own rules. And it seems to me, that if you don't back off or compromise, you should be DQed. If there's only one DS, then what right have you to bar GDS, etc?
I request a judge vote on the matter.
__________________ Wanted: New sig. Something crazy, zany, and slightly evil. Will give sig credit to whoever's I sport.
I just showed the specific rules, and there's NO WAY I'm violating ANY of them. But if you want, we can bring in the judges right now and let them decide which of us should be DQ'd.
I meant for the judges to vote on a DQ, the rules are staying as is. If there's one thing I WILL NOT tolerate in the Battle Zone, it's people like you trying to get the rules changed to help them out of a bind. The match continues, or the judges vote now on who's in violation of the rules and is thus DQ'd.
It's just occurred to me that I've spent far more time focusing on the failings of DS than I have on the capabilities of Thanos, so I figured I'd go ahead and touch on that a little more because I'd rather not win JUST because of the Hunger.
Now think about that. According to Eros, the "fake" Thanos was EASILY as strong as that Hulk(whom Eros knew from his time with the Avengers), and Thanos has that level of strength NATURALLY. Of course as we all know at one point Thanos DID receive bionic enhancement, but like Eros said he didn't NEED it to match the Hulk's strength level. Of course WITH the bionic enhancement Thanos was an absolute beast...
Now let's face it, those things ALONE qualify Thanos as a likely threat to DS, and they're all from BEFORE Thanos's last upgrade in the End. AFTER his upgrade in the End, he racks up even more impressive feats and demonstrates an even greater level of power. I've already shown his blasting Galactus post upgrade, so let's look some of his other post upgrade feats...
I know what people are thinking "big deal he has some high end feats", but you know what...those are pretty much the only showings that Thanos has post upgrade. There's NO showings post upgrade that indicate that Thanos's post upgrade feats are PIS or a fluke, so the feats have to be taken at face value.
Here let's review...
Thanos is strong enough to...
A. Knock someone like Mar-Vell Saturn to Earth...
B. Shatter Quasar's construct(that's resisted the combined might of Alpha Flight ,X-men and Avengers)...
C. Overpower Thor, Herculese, the Hulk, and Thing...
His energy blast are sufficient to...
A. Blow Glactus though the Hull of his own ship and damage his armor
B. Put down herald level guys like Surfer, Thor, and the Fallen One with ease
C. Knock Classic Magus for a loop... http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/...blastsmagus.jpg
And let's not forget, Thanos has a MUCH better track record against individual opponents of significant power. He's beaten on guys like Thor and Surfer NUMEROUS times, and even powerful opponents such as Odin and Tyrant have been unable to put him down for the count.
So when you look at all the evidence from an objective standpoint, I think it's save to say that Thanos IS a threat to Darkseid. Hell Trickster hasn't even shown anything that definitely gives DS the majority over post upgrade Thanos, let alone beating him 10/10. The claim in and of itself is utterly ludicrous, and completely unfounded.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 26th, 2007 08:58 PM
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Apokolips Now was just a bad showing, and despite the craptacular writing, I can't say anything against it. 
Villains say that kind of thing all the time Trick, are we supposed to take EVERYTHING the villain says at face value?
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