Post Retcon MM had 4 fights total. Of those 4, he LOST 3 (Klaw, Aaron the Rogue Watcher, and Sentry). So he had ONE good showing and THREE pathetic showings. I'll take my chances with Lord Mar-vell.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
^ You're overgeneralizing his fights by leaving out context and leaving out other fights.
Owen apparently suffered that "can't control organic molecules" limitation against Klaw (said inability obviously no longer applies).
Owen was mind-controlled by the Puppet Master when he fought Aron and, again, suffered that organic molecules limitation (which again, no longer applies). Lord Mar-Vell hasn't demonstrated the ability to generate a complete void surrounding Owen anyway (which is how Aron won). Until he does, he doesn't win that way anyway.
Sentry lost three times by being straight-up obliterated before getting the hang of his own matter manipulation abilities and straight-up overpowering Owen's matter manipulation. Lord Mar-Vell hasn't demonstrated matter manipulation that even comes close to approaching what Owen displayed during that Dark Avengers arc. Until he does, he doesn't win that way either.
Owen also fought post-retcon Beyonder in a display of power largely above most characters, including Lord Mar-Vell. This is the right answer.
No he didn't. Klaw won and almost killed both the MM and Marsha.
That ONE fight out of his total of FOUR post retcon. He's NEVER shown that level of power aside from that ONE fight. IMHO he dies horribly vs Mar-vell.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
I corrected myself. They gained the upperhand and then Klaw knocked em out and ran away. Again, irrelevant because of that organic molecule limitation that obviously no longer applies.
Have you not read anything I just stated? You're using an older version of Molecule Man that 1) was mind controlled at one point, and 2) had his organic molecule limitation in place.
Neither of those are relevant. And Lord Mar-Vell hasn't done anything to suggest he could win with outright superior matter manipulation (like Sentry did), or even comes close to approaching post-retcon Beyonder's overall power.
Klaw almost killed them and then casually WALKED away from the fight because it was over. I believe he actually thought they were dead.
I have been reading what you've written but it still doesn't hold up. Fight 1, owned by Klaw. Fight 2, owned by Aaron. Fight 3 (at "full" pwer), owns Beyonder. Fight 4 (what happened to all his power?), gets owned by Sentry.
One good showing out of four.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
lol. He was depowered when he fought Klaw and Aaron (and since when is losing to a Watcher a pathetic showing anyway?) I would also say, losing to Sentry is not really a bad feat... in contrast, just shows what a beast Sentry is when he is for real.
... now you're just being completely ignorant after being corrected with context several times.
One good showing against a character who's far beyond most characters (particularly Lord Mar-Vell). One loss against someone with a higher raw level of matter manipulation. Reality check: Lord Mar-Vell didn't display any matter manipulation close to even what Owen displayed during Dark Avengers. Sentry at his peak fights Photon Genis-Vell toe-to-toe in energy manipulation and Thor toe-to-toe physically. So just because you don't think it's a good showing is practically meaningless. Particularly when you keep acting like current Molecule Man had bad showings in two meaningless fights where he's 1) mind-controlled and 2) depowered.
The very fact that he was controlled by...........Puppet Master, just makes it worse for him not better. So he lost vs Klaw (almost got killed actually). Got mind controlled by Puppet Master, then lost to Aaron in his second fight. "Powers Up" and beats down the Beyonder in the third fight. Magically forgets his "power up" and dies at the hands of the Sentry in his fourth and final fight?
Lord Mar-vell for the win.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
How many times are you going to ignore us correcting you? Depowered Owen was mind-controlled by Puppet Master. Depowered Owen also got knocked out by Klaw. Nobody gives two sh1ts about a depowered Owen, much less a depowered mind-controlled one.
Once Lord Mar-Vell has matter manipulation feats that clearly surpass Owens' from Dark Avengers, he can possibly win the way Sentry did with straight up greater raw ability in matter manipulation. Once Lord Mar-Vell has power that is at least on par with post-retcon Beyonder, then he could possibly win that way also. Obviously, neither apply here.
And your completely incorrect recollection of post-retcon Molecule Man's fight history doesn't change that. And yes, I'll characterize your recollection as "incorrect" until you fully admit the context at play.
When looking at the Many Angled Ones you have to wonder about the levels they existed at. One would have to assume one of the higher level ones rested inside the body of alternate reality Captain Mar-Vell. We never saw telepathic assaults on these creatures but they took matter manipulation fine. When the Fault was compromised they spewed forth and the combined might of the Celestials, Shiar fleets and Kree Fleets and Galactus could barely hold them at bay. Sure we could just see the assault as a mass amount of numbers pouring through but with these guys destructive feats they should've been able to blast straight into the Fault.
The point I'm getting at is whether a Cthonic being like the one inside Lord Mar-Vell would be susceptible to the manipulations Molecule Man is capable of.
It was very difficult for the Annihilators to kill basic spawn. And Mar-Vell himself withstood assaults from both Nova and Surfer while laughing. And Surfer's most intense assaults are pratically destructivly matter manipulative.
There aren't enough feats for the Cthonic side to know for sure. If MM turns Lord Mar-Vell into a bucket of water like he did to Bullseye, would that bucket simply explode into a flurry of tentacles with Mar-Vell emerging within to blast a shocked MM into fear? Why not. Basic spawn withstood Galactus and the Celestials manipulations.
But in the end Molecule Man should win this based on feats. We didn't see much from the opposing side. I guess Lord Mar-Vell VS Shamu Gorath would be a better fight.
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Last edited by the ninjak on Jan 2nd, 2012 at 04:38 PM
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Jan 1st, 2012 01:38 AM
Again, depowered Owen.
