True top-tier? Blue Marvel is powerful, but he is not close to Thor and Surfer, let's get real here.
But anyways tell me how is BM is gonna overcome his kyrptonite, - electromagnetic fields, anyone with basic Science 101 will tell you that electromagnetic fields easily contain anti-matter that's a hard undisputable fact, BM can't overcome his fundamental weakness, no matter how hard he tries, this factor alone gives Magneto solid 10/10 win.
What makes Magneto deadly is not his raw power, but his application of his magnetic powers using his brains, it's irrelevant if BM is more powerful than Mags or not, because of that factor.
And because of that Magneto has vast variety of powers, how is BM gonna overcome...
1. Magneto sending EM wave to his brain, ultimately shutting down his brain.
2. Using Iron in his blood to kill him
3. or take control of his body and mind,
4. or make so that he can't access his own powers.
5. Shut down/fry his nervous system.
and etc...
Magneto has too many 1 shot type skills for BM to actually be a winner here.
Plus BM won't be able to breach Magneto's shields which has withstood....
1. Galactus.
2. Phoenix Force.
3. Thor/She Hulk at the same time.
4. Hercules.
5. Ghost Rider.
6. Infinity Gem energy boosted Selene.
and etc...
We look at comics differently. You are trying to imagine how fights SHOULD go down realistically. I look at how they are likely to happen at the levels of realism typically shown in comics.
Adam's power comes from within. How is he going to cut him off from his power?
I'd love to see how well Thor would do against Pagan. Oh yeah I already know. How about the team that Adam stood up to while trying to reason with them? How is he not an elite top tier again? He provided the power to contain the ghost of the Shaper of Worlds, who went on to fight beside Galactus to turn the tide against the Dark Celestials.
How again is he not an elite top tier when he one shot Ultimate Hulk?
He effortlessly flew an asteroid the size of a state away, which would have killed most of the life on the planet if it had impacted.
What in the world are you talking about? How about we take a look at Magneto before making all of these snap judgment calls?
Magneto stalemated against Sebastian Shaw, and this was before the major nerf took place. His fields are so powerful that Havok nearly killed him recently.
Both of these characters' abilities are based on SCIENTIFIC PHENOMENONS which were studied and we know what capabilities those aspects possess, we can't just blatanty start ignoring realistic aspect of fundamentality of their powers, if we do so, might as well ignore their entire powerset and have one normal person fight another normal person.
That's the problem with these type of characters, when having one science based powerset fighting another science based character, we must take into account how their phenomenons interact in real-world statistics.
And since we are talking about comics, then let's not forget there are plenty examples of science based characters' powers being used in realistic way....
1. Doctor Polaris vs Superman - Master of Magnetism vs a man powered electromagnetic radiation, Polaris totally drained him.
2. Dr. Light vs Green Lantern - Master of Photons vs a man with ring which creates photon based constructs, i think i don't need to explain what happened.
3. Hulk vs Havok - Gamma radiation vs Man with cosmic radiation absorption.
and etc...
So, yeah, overall realistic aspect of SCIENCE based powersets is not ignored in comics as well, and neither are we gonna ignore it as well, - Electromagnetic Field in and off itself acts a good anti-matter bending and manipulating notion, it's as simple as that.
Comics have many exceptions, but on the whole, characters at the high end tend to match up based on raw power with some consideration given to skill and experience. While it is sometimes relevant, on the whole, realistic power set vs. power set calculations are not often made by writers.
If you try to be realistic, where do you stop? We don't have enough consistent data at a sufficiently high resolution to fully realistically determine battle outcomes. So your realistic approach just ups the level of realism beyond typical levels to some arbitrary level where you choose, since we can't go all the way.
The same way Magneto drained Phoenix Force Jean, just put a electro-magnetic field around him and shape it and be done with it.
So just because Pagan was jobbed, it makes Blue Marvel powerful? Yeah, remind me who was stalemated by Hyperion, again? Oh wait, it was Blue Marvel, the same Hyperion who is weaker than both Hulk and Thor, and was struggling against Namor.
You mean team mostly consisting of fodder, yeah beating up mid-tiers like Iron Man, Ares and Wonder Man is totally an awesome feat, it's not as if they are bunch of fodder whom Hulk with ease can one-shot while ignoring all of their attacks, meanwhile Adam still struggles.
As for Sentry, anti-matter messes with his power, and yet he still whooped Adam's arse.
It was GHOST of the Shaper, not the real deal, it's like contraining a mere fraction of a cosmic cube, Iron Man's armor in whole Hydra Cap story arc did the same with Hydra Cap containing a fraction of cube in his armor. Also Shaper didn't fight Dark Celestials, he was merely observing.
Maybe, because Ultimate Hulk is not the same deal as 616 Hulk, nor has impressive feats overall, meanwhile Magneto has actually one-shotted a team of consisting 616 Hulk, Doctor Strange, Valkyrie and etc... not saying Magneto is top-tier just saying he has better Hulk feats.
Undisputably impressive feat, but not top-tier level, when you have characters who can lift planets and moons.
I never said Magneto is top-tier, i said what makes Mags OP is his brains in using his powers rather than raw might.
I don't know which version of their fight you are talking about, if X-Men Blue, it was nerfed Mags and boosted Shaw, if the one in old comics, it was good guy version of Mags, who was massively holding back and still won.
Also Shaw is ENERGY ABSORBER, any of form of energy is automatically absorbed by him, even Hercules got his ass kicked by Shaw, because not even magical energies were effective.
I like how you forget to mention context, it was amped Havok, and weakened era Magneto, plus it was stated that HEAT DISRUPTED MAGNETIC FIELDS, he didn't break them technically, - basically writer played dumb and portrayed Magneto as Magnet Man, as in magnets lose their magnetism because of heat, and as we know magnets get magnetism via specific atomic calibration, which generate magnetic field, disrupt that atomic calibration (usually via heat), you disrupt field of magnets, but Magneto's powers don't work like that, he doesn't generate fields like magnets.
Meanwhile, any version of Havok, amped or not, always got his ass kicked by Poalris, Magneto's daughter with same powers but on lesser level.
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Last edited by MaZeRaIII on Sep 1st, 2018 at 05:09 PM
Not really, when you have basic science based power set type characters fighting and one exploiting other's weakness via scientific means, it's irrelevant how much skill, power or experience he has, fundamental weakness is still fundamental weakness, it's like Superman vs Kryptonite, he is powerful, experienced and somewhat skilled, doesn't change the fact that Kryptonite isotopes heavilly affect him every time.
I agree when it comes to complex powerset you have a point, but we are dealing with basic Science 101, with nothing complex whatsoever, we are dealing with mere basics, who anyone who actually finished school or has read some info in wikipedia knows how it works on basic levels.
Calculations are not necessary, i never said we have to go that deep, stick to basics, just like writers tend to.
Personally, i stop at BASICS, even the examples i provided utilize basic applications of those science based powersets phenomenons.
And when it comes to anti-matter/EM Fields, it's as basic as it can get, we can't ignore the nature of their powers.
You are misunderstanding me here, i never said we must apply full realism, though it is probably my bad for not specifying, but notions i try to provide is stickin with BASIC levels of Science realism, which is consistent in comics, thus very applieable in our battle threads.
Shields made of Anti-Matter, which is highly affectable and easily manipulatable with Electromagnetic Fields - Science 101.
Yeah, shields can be great as much as he wants, just like Superman can be as invulnerable as he wants, but bring Kryptonite around him and that invulnerability shtick of his would be useless, and that's essentially what will happen with magnetic fields and anti-matter.
True he has great versatility, he can negate healing factors, create energy constructs, boost other characters powers, but most of his versatility is not applieable to Magneto, since Mags doesn't rely on powers that BM's versatility counters.
I respect that you aren't aiming for full realism. And your science 101 approach for power set matchups is sometimes taken into account by writers, but on the whole, I still feel it's typically a step too far.
Now, Magneto vs. Photon/Spectrum (or whatever her name is these days) might be more interesting in this respect. It can be harder for writers to ignore when two characters have exactly the same energy type.
And you've forgotten that BM has shields of his own, but still attempt to make it seem as if he'd be cut off from his power as if it were some external source like sunlight is to Superman.
No the fight that I'm talking about had them at full power years ago before the was ever an X-Men Blue, Red, Gold.
Adam Brashear is much smarter than Magneto. Come again? Or are you saying that BM is just a dumb brute that only uses brute force to win?
He moved it effortlessly which means that he wasn't straining to move it, which also means that he can move far more. So yeah he's elite top tier.
Ultimate Hulk was going at it with 616 Hulk. Come again?
That Ghost went on to fight against the Dark Celestials. No weak link there.
Basic science 101... LOL. Comic books are science fiction. Daredevil jumps off of a 5 story plus building, lands on his feet and instead of breaking his legs to the point of never being able to walk properly again, he doesn't even sprain an ankle. Wonder Woman takes a punch from Superman, which sends her speeding from the sun to the Earth but can be punctured by a bullet. Are we still going to claim that writers of science fiction are using real world science in the books that they write?
I'm not going to be rude Maz, so please excuse me if I discount your entire argument of using real world science in a forum that it does not belong in. Or, should I bring up all of the times that characters should have been crushed under the huge amounts of weight that they lifted? We can begin with Spiderman, or Batman if you'd like?
It seems that i have to repeat myself, it doesn't technically matter whether he has shields or not, it is his source of power which makes the point here, as the interaction of anti-matter and EM Fields is not ending in favor of anti-matter.
He will not be cut of his power source though he can do it like he did to Phoenix Jean, rather what i am saying is that whatever Adam throws up will be easily manipulated/broken/molded by Magneto's mag fields like basically giving Magneto clay to do whatever he wants to with it, and that's pretty much the problem of anti-matter when encountering electromagnetism.
I already asked to specify, and asked whether it was the Pre-2000, where Magneto technically won in that fight.
And do i need to remind you again that Shaw is energy absorber of all forms, even Hulk, Superman would lose against him, if they uses only brute kinetic force or their energy powers. Against such character you win with trickes, not with force, but i am doubting that you are grassping these notions here.
Call me, when Adam creates technology that was stated by narration would impress even Reed Richards and other technological geniuses, call me when Adam with his superior brain can create artifical mutants with vast powers, dinosaurs and etc..., call me when he can create aritifical sattelitles full of high-end tech. Call me when Adam can create mind-controlling tech, power-amping tech and so on...
Yeah, he is so much smarter, that he doesn't feats remotely close to Mags' intellect.
Trying to put words into my mouth i see, i never said that he is dumb brute, all i said that Magneto is better at using his power than BM which is a hard fact, and given that BM mostly focuses using his power in classical brawling manner, it just makes the point even more even.
Not that it matters though, electromagnetic fields by their nature act as ultimate counter to anything related to anti-matter, doesn't take a genius to exploit that aspect of weak point.
Yeah, he can move it as effortlessly as he can, still nowhere near lifting moons, planets, or even small continents. So no, he is not high-tier.
Yeah, not 616 Savage Hulk, but much weaker version of 616 Hulk, ie Doctor Green, don't forget to mention that.
Except, i already explained to you, he was not fighting Celestials, he was just observing and nothing more, sure he was there, but he played no role whatsoever in the outcome of the battle, thus lack of impressivnes in general.
Plus i already explained, why this feat doesn't make BM high-tier, in the same sense why similar feat doesn't make Iron Man esque armor high-tier, containing a fraction of cosmic cube doesn't automatically make you some uber high-tier.
Only in your dreams, buddy, only in your dreams.
Iron Man, as usually would get his armor controlled.
Wonder Man is literally made of pure electromagnetic enegy, Magneto would literally eat him.
Ares is irrelevant, he literally packs no power to even scracth Mags' shields, let alone break them.
She-Hulk already with help from Thor couldn't do jack against Magneto, and in Magneto: Dark Seduction, Mags with his powers took control of her body, so yeah another fodder for Magneto.
The only one importaint remaining Sentry, but then, he was weakened via massive amounts of anti-matter coming into Earth, thus vastly weakening him and messing with his powers, that's the only reason Adam actually stood a chance against him and still got rekt.
If Sentry is not weakened by anti-matter then Magneto loses rather obviously, if he is, Mags has chance to win by pulling every power trick he can muster, though he stands much better chance than BM, given his powerset.
Yeah, not aiming for full realism, merely on such aspects and knowledge that i know writers would know as well, given what basic educational system teaches people.
I don't think it's step too far, since i an not trying to complicate the matters, and only apply the most basic applications that everyone is informed with.
It seems that you haven't read my posts properly, so i'll clarify once more, - Science 101 means BASIC level of application of science, as in it's most basic and easily graspable aspects.
What you are trying to narratate here is that Science 101 = Full blown Realism, which is not the case nor i ever implied usage of full science, merely the basics that everyone knows, get it? Got it? Good.
Also yes, writers to do use real world science in basic levels of it, - i already provided such examples Doctor Polaris vs Superman, Havok vs Hulk, Dr. Light vs Green Lantern and so on....
Again, your argumental side comes from your misunderstanding of my posts, i never said full realism, only most basic levels of it, read my posts properly, that would benefit both argumental sides.
Now back to useage of science, yeah, no full realism, i already specified that, all examples and arguments i provided in that regard merely imply useage of most basic level of science, that anyone knows, no complications, no math, just basic knowledge.
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