god's divine will or man's free will? (other ramblings included)

after hearing a client pass off the murder of her 13 year old daughter at the hands of some gang-banger punk today, i began to ponder a question that i've had for years. in the views of the religious, does god's will truly shape the events of the world according to his "plan" or does mankind actually have free will?

now i know there will be someone who will say that it is both, man has free will and god has a plan but isn't that a logical fallacy? think of it this way, if god has a master plan (an argument that is conveniently used by many to explain the horrible and unjust) doesn't that remove the possibility of free will for mankind? if god wants me to die via the sudden and unexpected joining of my physical being and the front end of a big rig as i cross the street and i decide to spend a few extra seconds on the sidewalk watching a squirrel try in vain to open a can of planter's cashews, this would in turn save my life from god's plan. however, if we were truly bound by the power of god's will i would decide at that most crucial point in time to ignore the frustrated tree dweller and cross the street at the exact moment the truck was speeding by. this would in turn end my life but would only occur if my free will was overpowered by god's will.

the point is that both god's will and mankind's free will cannot possibly exist in harmony. a personal observation further illustrates my point. about 5 years ago, i was a member of a car club that participated in many auto cross and track events in southern california. a moderator on the forum we used was in a car wreck and needed a part i just happened to have in my garage. now i did not personally know him at the time and had absolutely no incentive to let him have the part but i decided to be charitable and help him out. he drove his rental to my home to pick up the part and brang his girlfriend along. he and i hit it off as did my wife and his girlfriend, fast forward 3 years and he and his girlfriend break up. shortly afterward both my wife and i tell her that she should take a chance and go out on a date with her brother. a few years later and they are happily married.

now this long chain of events that ultimately end up in the marriage of two people was initiated by my snap decision to give a $300 part to someone i didn't even know simply because it was sitting in my garage and he desperately needed it. was this god's will in accordance with his grand design or was it just an act of generosity on my part that lead to the marriage of two people? what if this was god's plan and at the last minute i exercised my free will and decided to be selfish and sell the part on ebay instead? these two individuals lived about 50 miles apart, had no mutual friends, had completely different careers that would never intertwine and also possessed completely different interests at the time so would never meet up at a location for one of many recreational activities in socal. in short, the odds of these two not only meeting but spending enough time together to eventually take a chance on a relationship would be slim to none. so, who is responsible for this? me or god? it can't be both.

other examples (which obviously are far more grand in their impact of the world) could include WWII and the holocaust that occurred during it. MILLIONS of people died. who is truly responsible? Hilter exercising his free, but twisted, will, or the celestial being up in the sky? either hilter was a seriously messed up individual who is responsible for the deaths of millions or...................he was just a puppet used by a spooky guy with a sick sense of humor.

this is an all or nothing deal here folks. its one or the other. either we have free will, or you get god's plan and all the crap that comes with it. you can't say "well we have free will and are responsible for all the bad in the world because we are ultimately flawed but all the good stuff, yeah, thats part of his plan". you can't have it both ways.

speaking of god's will. lets say that it is in fact absolute and his plan is iron clad. being my "creator" he knew that i would grow up being an overly analytical person and would come to question his existence or at the very least, his character. knowing this he creates me anyway and will ultimately damn me to hell for things that he KNEW i would do. doesn't that make him a little.................i dunno............sadistic?

another thought. why does christian doctrine suggest that to be granted access to heaven, we must accept god as our lord and savior? why can't it just be "hey, live a good life, don't kill anyone, and odds are you get to retire on 777 angel st"? isn't it good enough that, despite being an atheist, i am a good person and though i do not subscribe to any religion, my own personal moral code mirrors the rules set by the bible with the exception of "believe in the invisible dude in the sky or be damned"? what does that say about god? that instead of being concerned with your actions on earth, the reality is that he is an emotionally insecure individual and craves attention like an addict needs his next fix and will DAMN YOU TO HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY IF YOU DON'T WORSHIP HIM!!!!? seriously, think about this for a second........

*edited for, well..........nothing. i'm not concerned about a typo or a grammar mistake at the moment. i'd rather beg the wife for sex.

There are other options besides "God's will" and "free will" you know. This topic has also been discussed to death on this forum by people that (no offense) probably put a lot more thought into it than you.

well isn't that just peachy

Now, I'm not as good at this as most of the others on here, but here's what I would have taken issue with if you had said this to my face:

Originally posted by Tourist
now i know there will be someone who will say that it is both, man has free will and god has a plan but isn't that a logical fallacy?

Originally posted by Tourist

another thought. why does christian doctrine suggest that to be granted access to heaven, we must accept god as our lord and savior? why can't it just be "hey, live a good life, don't kill anyone, and odds are you get to retire on 777 angel st"? isn't it good enough that, despite being an atheist, i am a good person

Please correct me if I'm wrong- this is how it was explained to me by not ministers.

Originally posted by Tourist
well isn't that just peachy

Really? I imagine it would be somewhat irritating.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Because, to the best of my knowledge, Christian Doctrine states that you are not a good person. The only way to become a good person is to accept Jesus's sacrifice (and divinity) to allow his martyrdom to wash the sin from your soul.

Please correct me if I'm wrong- this is how it was explained to me by not ministers. [/B]

There are far too many "Christian Doctrines" to generalize pretty much anything as being Christian Doctrine. A lot of more progressive sects teach that being a good person and following in the footsteps of Jesus rather than needing to believe in his divinity.

Originally posted by Tourist
after hearing a client pass off the murder of her 13 year old daughter at the hands of some gang-banger punk today, i began to ponder a question that i've had for years. in the views of the religious, does god's will truly shape the events of the world according to his "plan" or does mankind actually have free will?

now i know there will be someone who will say that it is both, man has free will and god has a plan but isn't that a logical fallacy? think of it this way, if god has a master plan (an argument that is conveniently used by many to explain the horrible and unjust) doesn't that remove the possibility of free will for mankind? if god wants me to die via the sudden and unexpected joining of my physical being and the front end of a big rig as i cross the street and i decide to spend a few extra seconds on the sidewalk watching a squirrel try in vain to open a can of planter's cashews, this would in turn save my life from god's plan. however, if we were truly bound by the power of god's will i would decide at that most crucial point in time to ignore the frustrated tree dweller and cross the street at the exact moment the truck was speeding by. this would in turn end my life but would only occur if my free will was overpowered by god's will.

the point is that both god's will and mankind's free will cannot possibly exist in harmony. a personal observation further illustrates my point. about 5 years ago, i was a member of a car club that participated in many auto cross and track events in southern california. a moderator on the forum we used was in a car wreck and needed a part i just happened to have in my garage. now i did not personally know him at the time and had absolutely no incentive to let him have the part but i decided to be charitable and help him out. he drove his rental to my home to pick up the part and brang his girlfriend along. he and i hit it off as did my wife and his girlfriend, fast forward 3 years and he and his girlfriend break up. shortly afterward both my wife and i tell her that she should take a chance and go out on a date with her brother. a few years later and they are happily married.

now this long chain of events that ultimately end up in the marriage of two people was initiated by my snap decision to give a $300 part to someone i didn't even know simply because it was sitting in my garage and he desperately needed it. was this god's will in accordance with his grand design or was it just an act of generosity on my part that lead to the marriage of two people? what if this was god's plan and at the last minute i exercised my free will and decided to be selfish and sell the part on ebay instead? these two individuals lived about 50 miles apart, had no mutual friends, had completely different careers that would never intertwine and also possessed completely different interests at the time so would never meet up at a location for one of many recreational activities in socal. in short, the odds of these two not only meeting but spending enough time together to eventually take a chance on a relationship would be slim to none. so, who is responsible for this? me or god? it can't be both.

other examples (which obviously are far more grand in their impact of the world) could include WWII and the holocaust that occurred during it. MILLIONS of people died. who is truly responsible? Hilter exercising his free, but twisted, will, or the celestial being up in the sky? either hilter was a seriously messed up individual who is responsible for the deaths of millions or...................he was just a puppet used by a spooky guy with a sick sense of humor.

this is an all or nothing deal here folks. its one or the other. either we have free will, or you get god's plan and all the crap that comes with it. you can't say "well we have free will and are responsible for all the bad in the world because we are ultimately flawed but all the good stuff, yeah, thats part of his plan". you can't have it both ways.

speaking of god's will. lets say that it is in fact absolute and his plan is iron clad. being my "creator" he knew that i would grow up being an overly analytical person and would come to question his existence or at the very least, his character. knowing this he creates me anyway and will ultimately damn me to hell for things that he KNEW i would do. doesn't that make him a little.................i dunno............sadistic?

another thought. why does christian doctrine suggest that to be granted access to heaven, we must accept god as our lord and savior? why can't it just be "hey, live a good life, don't kill anyone, and odds are you get to retire on 777 angel st"? isn't it good enough that, despite being an atheist, i am a good person and though i do not subscribe to any religion, my own personal moral code mirrors the rules set by the bible with the exception of "believe in the invisible dude in the sky or be damned"? what does that say about god? that instead of being concerned with your actions on earth, the reality is that he is an emotionally insecure individual and craves attention like an addict needs his next fix and will DAMN YOU TO HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY IF YOU DON'T WORSHIP HIM!!!!? seriously, think about this for a second........

*edited for, well..........nothing. i'm not concerned about a typo or a grammar mistake at the moment. i'd rather beg the wife for sex.

No you're not. You believe you are a good person but your just as bad as the Supreme Mufti of the Mufti Wufti council.

Sym, isn't the defining characteristic of Christianity that Jesus died for (our) sins and that in order to acquire his purity (or a crude facsimile thereof) we must accept him as our savior?

I was under the impression that that was the Christian doctrine. Everything else is secondary.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Sym, isn't the defining characteristic of Christianity that Jesus died for (our) sins and that in order to acquire his purity (or a crude facsimile thereof) we must accept him as our savior?

I was under the impression that that was the Christian doctrine. Everything else is secondary.

No but it's great propaganda to tell people that. Having loud evangelicals who command megachurches full of people who happen to believe that certainly doesn't make things any easier for more, shall we say, calm about their beliefs.

It is a central Christian doctrine that Jesus died for the sins of mankind to give everyone a chance at redemption, but at least as far back as Calvin having to accept him as a savior was not an absolute requirement. There are at least a few sects (I grew up in one) that feel good deeds are more important that belief. By way of example outside of evangelicals and fundies you really won't find many people who think Gandhi is burning in hell.

That is good to know.

Like, a lot.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No but it's great propaganda to tell people that. Having loud evangelicals who command megachurches full of people who happen to believe that certainly doesn't make things any easier for more, shall we say, calm about their beliefs.

It is a central Christian doctrine that Jesus died for the sins of mankind to give everyone a chance at redemption, but at least as far back as Calvin having to accept him as a savior was not an absolute requirement. There are at least a few sects (I grew up in one) that feel good deeds are more important that belief. By way of example outside of evangelicals and fundies you really won't find many people who think Gandhi is burning in hell.

hmmm eer well...

I would have to agree...good people who do not believe in Jesus do go to heaven...but only because of his sacrifice and grace.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Really? I imagine it would be somewhat irritating.

what? that you said "There are other options besides "God's will" and "free will" you know. This topic has also been discussed to death on this forum by people that (no offense) probably put a lot more thought into it than you."?

honestly i passed it off as nothing more than an elitist comment made in an attempt to show the new guy who's boss. now that i know you assumed i would be irritated with your comment and yet posted it anyway, allow me to reply in kind..........you're a jackass................(no offense of course).

now that we have that out of the way, let me ask you this...........what other options are there than god's will and our own? every major western religion i've been exposed to believes in both. how can both exist when either one can apparently override the other? where is this middle ground that you seem to imply exists?

if your response is a reference to some obscure 20 person cult that believes that our will and gods are one and the same don't bother replying. i can find a bum on the side of the street who believes that cats will bring about the destruction of all mankind by lunchtime on friday but that doesn't make it popular opinion or relevant.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Now, I'm not as good at this as most of the others on here, but here's what I would have taken issue with if you had said this to my face:

There is a difference between a logical fallacy and an erroneous conclusion. Those people generally have internally consistent, logical beliefs that are founded on an assumption of the existence of God. Their positions are logical when viewed from this point of reference.

I stand corrected, thank you.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Because, to the best of my knowledge, Christian Doctrine states that you are not a good person. The only way to become a good person is to accept Jesus's sacrifice (and divinity) to allow his martyrdom to wash the sin from your soul.

Please correct me if I'm wrong- this is how it was explained to me by not ministers. [/B]

see, this is one of the things i have a problem with. back when i lived in texas i dated a chick who's dad was both verbally and physically abusive to both her and the rest of her family. but he went to church every sunday. now anyone that has met him wouldn't have much of an issue declaring that i was vastly superior in character than him and yet he gets to go to heaven when he dies and i burn in hell? how is it fair that a good hearted guy is tortured for all eternity while an abusive prick receives a get out of jail free card every week just because he showed up to a building for a few hours and said "I'm sorry"?

Yeah, pretty much because he said sorry. Why don't you get off your high horse and just say sorry too? I mean it isn't a big deal is it? It is just a few hours a week (in your understanding of it) so why don't you do it too?

(The answer is probably the two worst sinful emotions...the frist jealousy- which you have already expressed in the case of the poor man who apologies and inherits life and the second is pride... you refuse to humble yourself...but I can't blame you I guess, Satan was also corrupted by jealousy and pride.)

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
Yeah, pretty much because he said sorry. Why don't you get off your high horse and just say sorry too? I mean it isn't a big deal is it? It is just a few hours a week (in your understanding of it) so why don't you do it too?

(The answer is probably the two worst sinful emotions...the frist jealousy- which you have already expressed in the case of the poor man who apologies and inherits life and the second is pride... you refuse to humble yourself...but I can't blame you I guess, Satan was also corrupted by jealousy and pride.)

i honestly don't see how i'm on a high horse. i'm simply trying to see how this seems fair to the people who believe it. and i really don't see how you can say that it is due to jealousy or pride.

i'm not jealous of anyone's belief that they are going to heaven and i'm not. as an atheist i believe that when i die.............well thats pretty much it. i'm worm food........and so are you. there is no special club.

it most certainly isn't pride either. honestly now, how can any rational person be have a strong feeling of pride from this viewpoint "i don't believe what you believe and neither one of us can prove it one way or another. if you're wrong then you die just like me. however if i'm wrong i burn in hell"? nope, nothing to be prideful there, but if you want to give me a cookie i'll gladly take it. =D

also, if its not such a big deal for me to just say i'm sorry to a deity that i don't believe exists, is it really such a big deal if i don't? and even if i did, would it really mean anything?

But you do believe he exists...

[edit] right, I've decided...I was going to be a bit of a dick and wind you up rather that treating your oft asked question seriously (really why don't people do a little studying before they decide to debate Christian Theology...if you did you would know the answer to that question and would be better equipped to discuss it...this is why Sym said what he did, this question is always asked by little know-it-all super atheist theologians and they try to make a huge issue out of it before they mature a little and realise that it is not a terribly good question to ask and there are far more complex difficult ones that really get Christians tripping over themselves to find answers...) however it is 6 in the morning and I am not fully awake yet...so I shall come back and give my input to your question later...

er.....ok. i'm sorry. now i get to go to heaven with the rest of you guys right?

Originally posted by Tourist
er.....ok. i'm sorry. now i get to go to heaven with the rest of you guys right?

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
But you do believe he exists...

[edit] right, I've decided...I was going to be a bit of a dick and wind you up rather that treating your oft asked question seriously (really why don't people do a little studying before they decide to debate Christian Theology...if you did you would know the answer to that question and would be better equipped to discuss it...this is why Sym said what he did, this question is always asked by little know-it-all super atheist theologians and they try to make a huge issue out of it before they mature a little and realise that it is not a terribly good question to ask and there are far more complex difficult ones that really get Christians tripping over themselves to find answers...) however it is 6 in the morning and I am not fully awake yet...so I shall come back and give my input to your question later...

I edited out of compassion for your learning process...I get the feeling your going to be a Dawkinite or something...one of the people Christopher Hitchens mocked on Bill Maher.

Until I get round to bothering myself with your question I am going to berate you a little further (think of it as a KMC initiation) with this quote from Mitchell and Web:
[to a woman who enquires about theology...angry priest replies]
"Oh, aren't you all entitled to your halfarsed musing on the divine. You've thought about eternity for twenty-five minutes and think you've come to some interesting conclusions...well let me tell you I stand with 2,000 years of darkness, hunger and bafflement behind me. My kind have harvested the souls of millions and I couldn't give a heapny-jizz about your internet assembled philosophies."

Oh and FYI you did say in your initial post that you "began to ponder" that implies that you haven't reall thoguht about it and thus Syms initial response seems pretty valid.

Here is an interesting piece about non-Christians going to heaven.

JEWS
* 36% of white evangelicals think Jews can go to Heaven.
* 61% of white mainline protestants think Jews can go to Heaven.
* 37% of protestants at historically Black churches, think Jews can go to Heaven.
* 61% of white Catholics think Jews can go to Heaven.

ATHEISTS
* 15% of white evangelicals think atheists can go to Heaven.
* 38% of white mainline protestants think atheists can go to Heaven.
* 39% of white Catholics think atheists can go to Heaven.
MUSLIMS
* 20% of white evangelicals think Muslims can go to Heaven.
* 46% of white mainline protestants think Muslims can go to Heaven.
* 34% of protestants at historically Black churches, think Muslims can go to Heaven.
* 49% of white Catholics think Muslims can go to Heaven.
CATHOLICS
* 43% of white evangelicals think Catholics can go to Heaven.
* 64% of white mainline protestants think Catholics can go to Heaven.
* 41% of protestants at historically Black churches, think Catholics can go to Heaven.
PROTESTANTS
* 66% of white Catholics think Protestants can go to Heaven.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/01/12/can-atheists-go-to-heaven.htm

Originally posted by Tourist
honestly i passed it off as nothing more than an elitist comment made in an attempt to show the new guy who's boss. now that i know you assumed i would be irritated with your comment and yet posted it anyway, allow me to reply in kind..........you're a jackass................(no offense of course).

Yes I am, and you use too many periods to designate a pause but that's a completely unrelated topic.

Originally posted by Tourist
now that we have that out of the way, let me ask you this...........what other options are there than god's will and our own? every major western religion i've been exposed to believes in both. how can both exist when either one can apparently override the other? where is this middle ground that you seem to imply exists?

if your response is a reference to some obscure 20 person cult that believes that our will and gods are one and the same don't bother replying. i can find a bum on the side of the street who believes that cats will bring about the destruction of all mankind by lunchtime on friday but that doesn't make it popular opinion or relevant.

The most common alternate option is determinism. Free will does not exist and god does not need to exist.

There's a less common religious theory that God determined a beginning and end but one can choose in the middle.

Milton suggests in Paradise Lost that God has all but absolute knowledge of the course of time making omniscient and giving people free will. ie he knows what will happen at all times according to his plan but he's only 99.999...% sure of it. Which is enough that he's never wrong but people are making choices anyway. Though, that's really a terrible cop-out.

Calvanists believed (believe?) some fairly absurd thing about fate. Uncommon? Insane? Probably, but people did believe them.

And lastly there's my personal favorite: who cares anyway? Both are exactly the same unless you're omniscient to start with.

Originally posted by Grand-Moff-Gav
I edited out of compassion for your learning process...I get the feeling your going to be a Dawkinite or something...one of the people Christopher Hitchens mocked on Bill Maher.

Until I get round to bothering myself with your question I am going to berate you a little further (think of it as a KMC initiation) with this quote from Mitchell and Web:
[to a woman who enquires about theology...angry priest replies]
"Oh, aren't you all entitled to your halfarsed musing on the divine. You've thought about eternity for twenty-five minutes and think you've come to some interesting conclusions...well let me tell you I stand with 2,000 years of darkness, hunger and bafflement behind me. My kind have harvested the souls of millions and I couldn't give a heapny-jizz about your internet assembled philosophies."

i don't mind taking a little berating when its justified. i have no misconceptions that i know any more than you or sym. in fact that's pretty much the reason i'm asking these questions. it very well may be a bi-product of where i grew up and the religious institutions that were present at the time. my exposure to organized religion has been rather dissapointing (due to individuals who react almost violently to those who do not believe as they do or others that just blindly follow a belief structure that they don't really understand but will defend it until their dying breath). as a result i don't expect much from most religious people and have never really felt the need to expand my knowledge beyond what currently inspires the questions i have because honestly i haven't met anyone that has necessitated such a course of action. usually the response i receive is "er.................well..............I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG. THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!!!!!!!".

trust me, there are just as many self righteous super christians with little more information concerning their religion than what could be contained on a flyer as there are know-it-all super atheist theologians.