I think you've left out some [SPOILER - highlight to read]: all of the steps here. Prayer would be initiated out of one's own free will, in order to connect with God. God then acknowledges (or not) the prayer, again out of hir own free will. The result of the prayer (material or psychic income) is then distributed throughout the human's life, again at the discretion of free will.
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Looking at you.
The only person listening while you pray is yourself. Fortunately, it turns out that the only person who can do anything about your prays is also yourself. Therefore, if there is something you are praying for, then get off your butt and do something about it.
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Giving someone more understanding wouldn't be altering free will, from a human's perspective. Also, considering that the "child" came to the "father" of his or her on volition, seeking a specific results or council, it is wholly free-will and the result is still the exercise of the "pray-er's" free will.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Nov 4th, 2009 at 04:46 AM
I thought the whole point of having free will was that you could choose to follow god or not (and are thus responsible and can be punished for your sins). If God just reaches into your mind and "makes you see the light", you are essentially being forced to believe in him.
Trying to confront him directly with a supposed contradiction won't work. It's unlikely you'll get a straight answer, and even less likely that it will elicit anything productive in discussion.
Not that I mind the intent of questioning another's beliefs in a civil manner. It's a fair purpose, although your tone suggests something a bit less than civil. But I can't see anything good coming of it.
Gender: Male Location: USA, Oklahoma. Pewpy balls.
Not really. You get the option to do with that information as you will.
God supposedly told Mormons to not go into debt for anything other than education and a home...yet, millions of Mormons are in debt for things other than those items...despite God's "enlightenment."
I'm sure there are trillion and one things like that.
But if the info god provided was insufficient to cause you to convert, then he did not fulfill the prayer to "bring you to the light" so to speak. If he had accomplished the task, then it would infringe on your free will to discover god on your own.
Let's simplify it. What if someone prayed to God to "make someone a good christian"?
Gender: Male Location: USA, Oklahoma. Pewpy balls.
Showing someone the "light" isn't always listened to, though. Think about how many times you've had an argument with thick-headed idiots.
It's much worse for God.
God can answer a prayer, but it is still up to the individual to act on those "answers." Receiving knowledge is all it is. Nothing more. It's not as though you say one prayer and, boom, you've reached nirvana.
To use the old worn out saying, you can take a horse to water...
Simple. God wouldn't do anything and may not even answer the prayer.
However, if a person asked, "what can I do to help John through his hardship?" An answer might be listening to him sincerely, doing acts of service for him, or even asking to pray with him in his home. Not once did Jesus force his message on anyone. If you see a Christian trying to shove the gospel down someone's throat, they are definitely NOT being Christ-like and they shame the God they profess to follow. First example I can think of: all the gay hate I see in Oklahoma from "Christians."
Which do you think is the more loving and "Christ-like" prayer: the one that asks God to destroy a person's free will, or the prayer that asks for help in bringing love and charity to someone they care about? Both are aiming for the same goal, really...but one is almost evil and the other is loving.
People shouldn't pray for God to do things, they should pray for the strength to do things themselves. We are here to become better people so we can become more like God...not to consistently rely on God for every little thing.
Here's another example: If God commanded me to move a mountain, I would go buy a shovel (unlike Moses who is like *kapow!* and he's split the Red Sea.)
considering the christian doctrine i used to follow, here are 'the answers.'
first. keep in mind that 'prayer' is a kind of meditative state for some people. would you agree that your mind might be more open to interpret 'signs' [whether they were meant to be interpreted or not]? also, god won't do all the work for you... free will means that you can be proactive as well.
second. god does not answer a prayer by speaking into your brain directly. if that happens to be the way people experience it, then they are very most likely schizophrenic. here's where "god's mysterious ways" come into play. because god gave us free will, it would be sorta against that principle for him to write on the wall the answer. you may be inspired through your meditative prayer-state, or you may come away with a deeply unsatisfying feeling. i'm sure shaky would say that meditation isn't something you get on the first try.
three. more "god works in mysterious ways." your prayer may most likely be answered by a seemingly random act. say you're praying not to land in debt. so, you leave your prayer-state and get a call from someone who you know that is planning to sell off [blank] and they're letting you know because they know you're interested in [blank]. it might mean having to take out a loan or something, but it might turn out to be the best thing that ever happened. you might buy _____ and become very successful. or you might buy ____ and suck air trying to do it. god gives no promises, and expects you to do most of the work yourself.
finally, there's protestant work ethic. you probably already know what this is, but i'll just run through it - the harder you work, the more benefits you'll get. basically a 'you'll reap what you sow' type deal.
The idea of a God who knows the result of actions that have not yet occurred is not congruent with free will. I don't see prayer modifying this in any way, as God already knows whether he will answer your prayer before you are born.
EDIT: basically, if we are proposing the Christian god is real, as xyz would have to be for the question to be valid, we are already throwing away the concept of free will as it is understood in the Western philosophical tradition. Prayer can't give you more free will, but how can you get less than none?
__________________ He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
but if God already knows you were going to pray, what you were going to ask, whether he would answer and how that would all play out before your parents' grandparents were born, where was the free will in the first place?
__________________ He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
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Nov 4th, 2009 01:55 AM
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