A fascinating question is: which of these two religions is morally superior? Which teaches us more valuable lessons? Which religion's God is more powerful/kinder/wiser? Which book holds more factual evidence to the existance of an omnipotent being?
I'm particularly interested in members JesusLovesYou and S_W_LeGenD duking it out; that'd be fascinating.
S_W_LeGenD thinks Islam is conducive to free democratic society and JesusLovesYou completely avoids answering any truly hard problems with Creationism and just posts dishonest Creationism propaganda.
So an interesting and honest conversation is probably not likely; but yeah, a good idea anyway.
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
I'd stand by Christianity on this one... which isn't surprising given that I'm a Christian.
Basically, there are moral epithets within the Bible and traditional Christian theology that I obviously find disagreeable (such as verses referring to stoning people and homosexuality being immoral), however the core values of Christianity I think are justifiable as being very aligned with moral behavior from even a secular argument.
To Islam's credit, given that they both share Abrahamic roots, they both share the Garden of Eden Story, which I think is a rather perfect allegory for why we as humans have the proclivity and capacity for evil, as well as the emergence of personal and moral responsibility in humans in a way animals don't have, which is further expanded as being rooted in arrogance by arrogance being the cause of Satan's downfall as well as the temptation that lead to the fall of man. In Christianity, and if I'm not mistaken Islam as well, there's also the conversation between Moses and God through the burning bush where God states his identity as "I am that I am" which is a statement of self-awareness which I believe to be the ultimate truth and the root of love and meaning and therefore morality.
Where Christianity wins for me is where the two hedge off, with Jesus and his teachings being central to Christianity and Muhammad and his teachings being central to Islam. The life and teachings of Jesus further expand on arrogance being the root of evil with arrogance being the appeal Satan used to try and tempt Jesus with in the desert, a mainstream line of thought in Christian theology considering Pride to be the father of all sin, and a lot of Jesus's teachings placing emphasis on being humble as a counterpoint to arrogance. Some examples of humility being Jesus's criticism of the Pharisees for being pompous and arrogant and self-righteous (which more Christians would do well to remember when conducting themselves in their daily lives), the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector where pharisee prayed to God bragging about how righteous he is whereas the tax collector admitted his faults and begged forgiveness and Jesus approved of the latter and disapproved of the former, as well as his teachings regarding the importance of forgiveness, and even the humility of his birth being born in a manger to a poor family. His life and teachings at least in traditional sense also focus a lot around love with his two great commandments boiling down to act out of love for everyone (which I believe is defensible even secularly as the greatest moral code), the theological implications of God engaging in self-sacrifice through Jesus's death and resurrection, and the fact that when Jesus was being crucified he called for the forgiveness of the people torturing and killing him.
As far as my knowledge of Muhammad goes, the guy whose meant to be the central figure of Islam acted as a warlord and slave-owner, and whereas based on Jesus's words the main moral edict of Christianity is to act out of love for everyone, the main moral edict of Islam seems to be the defense of Islam as an institution, which don't get me wrong Christians have done similar things and violent bullshit in defense of Christianity, but that seems to go directly against Jesus's teachings, whereas war in favor of Islam seems to be something Muhammad would approve of given his participation in it during his life.
To be clear, I'm not defending Biblical Inerrancy, as I believe there are several regressive and outdated edicts within the Bible, however I would fiercely defend the validity and importance of the core values of Christianity and the implications of the example Jesus set forth. I'm not even saying every Christian is superior to every Muslim, given that individuals vary by a case by case basis in their attitudes and actions, however I find more moral value in the core values and theology of Christianity in comparison with Islam.
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Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
It wouldn't be surprising if you were secular either, and you apparently very nearly are. Even people who actively oppose Christianity to the degree of Richard Dawkins agree that Christianity is inherently more peaceful than Islam, however.
Including Dawkins himself:
3:35
"I would be thoroughly in favor of education in the Bible as literature.
You can't understand English Literature without the Bible.
You can't take your allusions ...
This IS a Christian country, historically it's a Christian country,
You can't understand English History or English Literature without a knowledge of the Bible ...
By the way, I should say, the act of collective worship, I don't approve of it, but nevertheless:
The Christian religion ... is benign by comparison ...
The penalty for apostasy in the Christian religion is not death.
There is no penalty for apostasy at all in the Christian religion. The Christian religion is comparatively benign, and we should respect it as such." -- Richard Dawkins
4:33
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Stoning people I can understand.
I'm a bit at a loss for how you can claim to be a Christian and think homosexuality is NOT immoral, however. Both Old and New Testaments of the Bible are fairly clear that it IS immoral.
To a degree apparently not found in a book like the Koran, incidentally.
For me, it's a simple matter of comparing the two central figures of Christianity and Islam: Jesus vs. Mohammed. Hippie vs warlord. What else is there to say?
__________________ And from the ashes he rose, like a black cloud. The Sin of one became the Sin of many.
Yeah, that's basically what it comes down to for me also. The differences matter a great deal. So overall Christianity wins for the simple fact that it has been much easier to reform. But both are full of dangerous irrationality which have negatively impacted human existence. There's the matter of the Old Testament which is awful, perhaps even worse than the Koran. But at least Christianity does have Jesus in the New Testament to nullify some of that awful Old Testament.
There's a different in emphasis between Islam and Christianity. Islam emphasizes and encourages violence a lot more, but Christianity is not without its violent streaks. There's still plenty of past doctrinal interpretations in Christianity that have resulted in awful amounts of violence and murder, like the Inquisition and burning of witches.
Gender: Male Location: The Proud Nation of Kekistan
Well IMO if I believe the Christian God created the universe, which I do, then it follows that I believe Christian theology should be not only evident in the bible, but also to a degree evident out in the world and with logical reasoning, and I've found myself satisfied there.
I wasn't aware Richard Dawkins made that distinction. I just gained more respect for him. I can't stand the attitude of some people on the left, such as TYT, who constantly ***** about how supposedly awful Christianity is, but then bend over backwards to defend Islam.
Well that's the thing, I claim to be a Christian because I have a pretty fierce faith in the Holy Trinity, in Jesus's teachings, and in divine Truth reflected in the Bible. The fact that I'm not a biblical inerrantist (a biblical inerrantist being someone who believes the Bible is a flawless work) is not due to a lack of faith on my part, but rather it is due to the emphasis of my faith.
I don't believe the Bible is without error considering internal contradictions within it as well as between parts of the Bible and science, which means I can either ignore the contradiction and consider the Bible a flawless work despite evidence to the contrary or find a way to reconcile it, and thus I conclude that the Bible while divinely inspired, that divine inspiration still passed through the imperfect medium of humanity and contains elements of human flaw as well as divine truth.
As far as internal contradictions within the Bible goes, there are parts that seem to contradict core Christian values taught by Jesus, or even directly contradict Jesus's teachings. We've already brought up an example in Biblical verses about stoning people, to which Jesus at one point stood against and said "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” So in that instance I reject parts of the Bible as being errant on the basis of my faith in the Divinity of Jesus as one of the three persons within the Holy Trinity, given that some of them contradict Jesus's teachings.
As far as contradictions with scientific fact go, given that I believe God the Father created the universe, then it follows that I believe scientific law is in a sense God's direct word. Thus, from the standpoint of my faith in the Father as one of three persons in the Holy Trinity, I find it ironically blasphemous to deny scientific fact that is plainly observable about God's creation that God chose to put into existence on the bases of Biblical verses, which leads me to either concluding that some of those verses are either flawed or not literal. Take Genesis for example, the account of the creation of the universe and the beginning of humanity is in contradiction with the scientific facts we have observed about the beginning of the universe and the beginning of humanity. So I consider the account of creation in genesis flawed, but still containing significant and powerful divine truth on the basis of God using his articulated speech to pull order out of chaos and create the physical universe we inhabit. And the story of the fall of man in genesis I don't consider literal, however when I look at it allegorically I am convinced that it is divinely inspired given how powerfully accurate it is about the nature of evil and our capacity from it, the quality of moral understanding that separates us from the rest of nature, and the reasons we bear responsibility in a way no other creature on this Earth does. That doesn't mean I have some irreverence towards the story of the fall of man, quite the contrary I find it more powerful and accurate than any other allegory in human history and it is in fact one of the most significant truths we should be aware about of our own nature.
So I'm rather unorthodox for a Christian given that I'm not a biblical inerrantist, but I still believe the Bible contains divine truth, I still believe in the teachings of Jesus, and most importantly IMO I still believe in the divinity of the Holy Trinity.
__________________
Shadilay my brothers and sisters. With any luck we will throw off the shackles of normie oppression. We have nothing to lose but our chains! Praise Kek!
THE MOTTO IS "IN KEK WE TRUST"
Better question is: which religion(in the way it is currently practiced) is the least compatible with western civilization?
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
And why must the accuracy of the Bible regarding human nature demand the existence of "divine truth"? Like maybe people are just that smart and insightful.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Jul 17th, 2017 at 06:51 PM
I take all polls with a grain of salt, but according to a gallup poll from 2011 3 out of every 10 Americans take the bible literally.
The number is apparently similar to figures from the last 2 decades, but the number is also down from the figures we had in the 1970s and 1980s.
In other words it seems slowly less and less people take the bible literally. 3 in 10 is still way too high a figure though IMO. Not all Americans are Christian, so I'd wonder how many Christians out of 10 still take the bible literally.
__________________ Chicken Boo, what's the matter with you? You don't act like the other chickens do. You wear a disguise to look like human guys, but you're not a man you're a Chicken Boo.
Last edited by Surtur on Jul 17th, 2017 at 08:52 PM
Hardly. Christianity, in the West, has largely been tamed by Secularism. Islam is a much younger religion, and as such, is where Christianity was 650 years ago. That has nothing to do with one being inherently easier to reform. Rather, it is a function of how long Secularism has been acting on one versus the other.
There is plenty of violence and murder committed by Christians in the name of Christianity today, even in the West. Hell, Christians in Africa burn people alive for being witches to this day.
If you want me to jump to the defense of Christianity you're barking up the wrong tree... lol. Yes, Secularism has reformed Christianity. And maybe Islam just hasn't collided enough with Modernity. And you have a point about Islam not being around as long. But...
There's not as much in the scriptures of the Koran that could help it reform. Way too much of it is about persecuting and killing infidels. So the way that supposed "extremists" behave in fulfilling jihad is really not a distortion of the scriptures.
Yes, Christianity is awful, too. But the differences matter.
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Last edited by Patient_Leech on Jul 18th, 2017 at 12:15 AM
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