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What changed to stop the bomb going off?
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Ushgarak
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What changed to stop the bomb going off?

Sorry if has a. been discussed before or b. is a very regular question in other places. Couldn't see anything around here though.

First series Heroes just finished in the UK (yes, very late I know, but at least we don't get a whacking great gap in the middle when it shows here)

So, good guys win, yay etc. Trouble is, I am not sure quite why.

In 'Five Years Gone' we see a future where the bomb went off. people often refer to this as a future where 'Hiro failed'. I cannot make sense of that at all, in all honesty.

To make my problem plain: a few episodes after Five Years Gone, we have the finale and New York is saved.

Why, exactly? What was different? We know that Hiro stabs Sylar anyway. First time around it didn't make any difference because Sylar regenerated, and presumably he would have been able to stop Nathan flying Peter away (though how Sylar then survived the explosion, I have no idea).

But that wasn't the case in Five Years Gone. Sylar couldn't regenerate, so presumably Hiro had stabbed him and it worked. I cannot think of any reason why he wouldn't have done, and certainly the programme has not made it clear. Nor is it clear why, having stabbed Sylar, the bomb still goes off.

The only possible difference I can spot is that Hiro calls Nathan a villain, which may have affected his final decision. But that link looks a bit tenuous, to be honest, and again is not made clear on-screen.

Hiro never 'failed' or 'succeeded'. He does the same thing each time- stabs Sylar.

So... compared to 'Five Years Gone'... what changed?


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 7th, 2007 at 08:34 PM

Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 08:27 PM
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starlock
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The bomb went off.....but it did not cause a disaster, that is the main thing that stopped five years gone

One thing for sure is hiro calling nathan a villan....and me and my friends pointed that out as we discussed the show, since hiro came back from that time line..so good call on that one

Another is claire..she runs away from the hatian and goes after peter...i dont think it happened the same way in five years gone, since she was in hiding under bennets supervision, but we cant find the turning point, her going to nathan and arguing with him about letting it happen is the story line...."save the cheerleader save the world" thats another point we came to if you go with the original plot

I do agree if we take what was shown to us...hiro calling nathan a villan is the only thing that is a obvious change

Peters scar in the five years gone story is another riddle....if he saved claire why does he not have regeneration?


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 08:46 PM
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Entity
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Peter's the bomb!
Peter was always the bomb. Hiro didn't know that but in having Peter save the cheerleader instead of HRG it lead to Nathan meeting his daughter and all the heroes coming together.

Nathan met Claire and she convinced him to save Peter thereby also saving the world.

So even thou it wasn't what Hiro had planned on causing to save the world it still did.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 08:50 PM
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Ushgarak
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And how DID Sylar survive the bomb in Five Years Gone?

Hmm...


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 08:52 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
And how DID Sylar survive the bomb in Five Years Gone?

Hmm...
He wasn't there!
Sylar was never the bomb. Peter was!

Nathan just made that up to protect his brother and Sylar ran with it because it made him invisible basically.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 08:55 PM
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Ushgarak
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Ah but that;'s irreelvant. Sylar and Peter must have been in the same place when the bomb blew or Hiro would have KNOWN it was Peter.

Hiro knew exactly when the bomb went off, remember. So he was in the right place at the right time, he just got rhe wrong man. Buty Sylar was there, so asking how he lived is relevant.

And why didn't nathan meet Claire in the version seen in Five Years Gone? I'm after reasons here- clear reasons.

It happened mostly as we saw it anyway. Sylar and Peter fight, Hiro stabs Sylar.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 7th, 2007 at 09:10 PM

Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 09:08 PM
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grey fox
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There are three time-lines Ush.

1ST - Claire is dead, Sylar stole her ability and presumably killed a hell of a lot of people including Ted. Hiro stabbed this Sylar (presumably at Kirby Plaza) , but Sylar regenerated, then later exploded. Hiro then lives through this time-line wherein events similar to five years gone (Linderman Act , Superhuman concentration camps ect) happen. He creates a time-line and finds out the EXACT point when it's best to time-jump.

2nd Timeline - Hiro Jumped successfully, Claire is still alive (albeit in hiding) , but Syalr has become president. Peter exploded instead. Presumably [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Sylar escaped much like in Season 1 eventually becoming President through Candices illusionary abilities. The Main divergence here, is that although Claire is still alive, Nathan refused to fly Peter away , thus Peter was the bomb. (However, Hiros Time-jump doesn't neccisarily mean he gains the Memories of his new time-line, just that he has altered the past)

3rd (Current) Timeline - Nathan flies Peter into the UA to explode relatively harmlessly. I also suspect that Hiros 'Villain !' is a major divergence as well.

Ironically enough this makes Hiro even more like his Hero Trunks , due to DBZ's Trunks having 3 notable time-lines.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 10:06 PM
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Ushgarak
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I think much of that just re-states what I said.. But we cannot really nail down the difference between timelines two and three... and also answer how Sylar survived timeline 2 when the bomb blew.

I'm also not sure why I should think Sylar was the bomb in the first timeline. The prediction still said it was Peter.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 10:20 PM
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grey fox
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think much of that just re-states what I said.. But we cannot really nail down the difference between timelines two and three... and also answer how Sylar survived timeline 2 when the bomb blew.

I'm also not sure why I should think Sylar was the bomb in the first timeline. The prediction still said it was Peter.


Survived the bomb ?

I assume he escaped somehow, or that Peter just generally exploded. Well considering F-Hiro believed that Sylar was the bomb, yet didn't have anytime to hear about it from the second time-lines media I presumed that Sylar WAS the bomb originally. Also F-Hiro states that Sylar was the bomb In 'String Theory' .


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 10:32 PM
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But he would say that- everyone thinks it.

Future Hiro is simply mistaken. He didn;t see the explosion happen (else he would have died) so like everyone else he would have assumed it was Sylar. Which he would oinly do if Sylar was in the right place to have done it when he stabbed him.

In any case, it was predicted to be Peter, it always was Peter, I cannot track any change that would have meant it was not Peter in timeline 1. And let me put it this way- why would saving Claire turn the exploding man from Sylar to Peter?

That seems to be all part of the pointlessness of Hiro's mission- stabbing Sylar changes nothing. Unless we really do narrow it down to the 'Villain!' thing, but as I say, it's not exactly portrayed as the big deal that changes everything.

'Escaped somehow' doesn't really cut it at an answer... I am after how.

The essence of the matter is this- 'Save the Cheerleader, Save the World' was meant to be the concept that changed the future. It didn't work. So in the end... what did?


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 10:39 PM
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grey fox
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But he would say that- everyone thinks it.

Future Hiro is simply mistaken. He didn;t see the explosion happen (else he would have died) so like everyone else he would have assumed it was Sylar. Which he would oinly do if Sylar was in the right place to have done it when he stabbed him.

In any case, it was predicted to be Peter, it always was Peter, I cannot track any change that would have meant it was not Peter in timeline 1. And let me put it this way- why would saving Claire turn the exploding man from Sylar to Peter?

That seems to be all part of the pointlessness of Hiro's mission- stabbing Sylar changes nothing. Unless we really do narrow it down to the 'Villain!' thing, but as I say, it's not exactly portrayed as the big deal that changes everything.

'Escaped somehow' doesn't really cut it at an answer... I am after how.

The essence of the matter is this- 'Save the Cheerleader, Save the World' was meant to be the concept that changed the future. It didn't work. So in the end... what did?


My reasons are thus.

1. String Theory - One of the Graphic Novels, Hiro has JUST returned from his time-jump and still believes it was Sylar. How else would he know ? No one could of told him and as I said i'm pretty sure he doesn't 'assimialte memories' otherwise he wouldn't need to ask his past-self whether or not he (Past-self) killed sylar.

2. Without 'Save the cheerleader' Peter lacked motivation. What was he doing before it ? Falling on his ass and attempting to find others like him.


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Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 10:52 PM
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1. Err, sorry, that's making no sense. He only says Sylar was the bomb in the course of thoughts to himself, after living for five years in a period of time where everyone was saying it was Sylar (and if it were any different in the version he returned to, he would have noticed. He didn't). Like everyone else, he's probably just mistaken. Again, WHY would Sylar stop being the bomb and Peter start being it just because Claire was alive? We have no reason to think Peter was any different- indeed, Future Hiro knows Peter from tineline 1 and does not note any change. Seems Peter does stuff and acquires powers the same way in both timelines 1 and 2.

2. That seems to be a little irrelevant again- with the cheerleader saved, nothing changed.

Again, as I say "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World" wasn't the change (we know for a fact it failed), so what was?


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 7th, 2007 at 11:05 PM

Old Post Dec 7th, 2007 11:00 PM
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I think the biggest thing that changed was Nathan. As soon as he learned that it was going to happen, he was convinced by Angela that there was no way to stop it. But then, after his meeting with Hiro, and then later with Peter, he changed his mind.

As he said: "The future isn't written is stone"


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 03:11 AM
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S_D_J
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Re: What changed to stop the bomb going off?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry if has a. been discussed before or b. is a very regular question in other places. Couldn't see anything around here though.

First series Heroes just finished in the UK (yes, very late I know, but at least we don't get a whacking great gap in the middle when it shows here)

So, good guys win, yay etc. Trouble is, I am not sure quite why.

In 'Five Years Gone' we see a future where the bomb went off. people often refer to this as a future where 'Hiro failed'. I cannot make sense of that at all, in all honesty.

To make my problem plain: a few episodes after Five Years Gone, we have the finale and New York is saved.

Why, exactly? What was different? We know that Hiro stabs Sylar anyway. First time around it didn't make any difference because Sylar regenerated, and presumably he would have been able to stop Nathan flying Peter away (though how Sylar then survived the explosion, I have no idea).

But that wasn't the case in Five Years Gone. Sylar couldn't regenerate, so presumably Hiro had stabbed him and it worked. I cannot think of any reason why he wouldn't have done, and certainly the programme has not made it clear. Nor is it clear why, having stabbed Sylar, the bomb still goes off.

The only possible difference I can spot is that Hiro calls Nathan a villain, which may have affected his final decision. But that link looks a bit tenuous, to be honest, and again is not made clear on-screen.

Hiro never 'failed' or 'succeeded'. He does the same thing each time- stabs Sylar.

So... compared to 'Five Years Gone'... what changed?


I know it's lengthy, so please, bare with me

The way I see it:

The Bomb did go off, it was unstoppable.
like it was stated, (and we have discussed it many times before, those who saw the first season already) the past cannot be change.
I differ with some people in that, I think it can be changed, the thing is, and Hiro said it: There are certain things you cannot change, they will come to pass one way or another, regardless of what you do to stop them. Charlie's death was one of those things, it didn't matter if Hiro saved her from Sylar, she was going to die anyways.
The same with the bomb, there was no stopping it, Angela, Linderman, even Charles knew it, the bomb couldn't be stopped. What they were going to do, choosing Nathan over Peter is a different matter.

I've never heard, or read, anything about Hiro failing, he did not fail, the future(/past) was changed, but not the way he thought it would be changed.
I think to understand it we must analyze it the way it was presented in the show, following the timeline(s) has it unfolds

like it was said, there are, at the end of season one, three different time lines went it comes to the future:

1 - The first one, where the bomb went off and NY destroyed. This is from were Future Hiro comes: what we understand from the show is what Hiro presents (and what he thinks happened when he explains it in "5 years gone" and in the GN).
He thinks Sylar was the bomb, he thinks he failed when he tried to kill Sylar, because that F. Sylar killed Claire and got her power, so by stabbing him with the katana, Hiro couldn't kill him because he regenerated.
that could also explain how Sylar survived the explosion if he was present at the time it happened, or then again, he could have escaped before it.
Now I assume Hiro got knocked out (and rescued) or escaped, thus surviving the explosion, he thinks it was Sylar who exploded, but it was Peter all along. Now how did Peter survived being the bomb if he never met Claire?, easy, by absorbing Sylar regeneration power when Hiro stabbed him.

F. Hiro tries to undo his supposed mistake and tracks down the events that lead to that day in Kirby Plaza (notice that in the season finale the explosion happened at night but in the first episode, it was probably afternoon (daylight) when the bomb goes off). He finally narrows it down to the moment when Sylar got Claire's power (or an estimate). He decides to stop said event from happening. He goes and warns (vaguely, that was the case because it was early in the season so he couldn't spill out the entire truth, for dramatic purposes I presumed) to the one person capable of stopping Sylar: Peter. He knew who was Peter, he knew how powerful he is and what he could do, If someone was to stop Sylar, it was Peter (he even tells him how different he looks without the scar in his face...and thus, a new future timeline it's created

2 - The second timeline begins, Hiro tells Peter to "Save the Cheerleader, Save the world". Peter gets new motivation to uncover his powers, and to find others like him, finds Claire, saves her and absorbs her power.
meanwhile Hiro goes back to the future, only to find that nothing had changed.. or so it seems. The bomb went off, but what's different now it's that Sylar never got Claire's power. Hiro still thinks that Sylar was the bomb, the world still believes that was how it happened and so on and so for... the only ones who know the truth, apparently, are Peter, Nathan and Sylar.

Sylar escapes the bomb [SPOILER - highlight to read]: injured I presumed, much like in season two, and somewhere along, meets Candice and takes her power.
(I presumed much of the following happened in the first timeline too) I don't know what happens first, Nathan becomes president, tells the world the terrorist Sylar was responsible for the bomb, to cover for his brother, Sylar finds him, kills him, and posses as him. And tries to get rid of all "special" people to be the only special one alive.
and yes, Peter still has that scar, even though he now has Claire's power... more on that later

Present Hiro goes to the future, now this never happened before (I think), because F. Hiro acts surprised when he meets his past self.(meaning that F Hiro never went to the future in his timeline) Hiro tells him they saved the cheerleader, F.Hiro then again tells Hiro Sylar it's the bomb (wrong). He thinks nothing changed because P.Hiro had not killed Sylar because he is in the future, he tells him he must go back and kill Sylar now that he doesn't have Claire's power (wrong) and that way the bomb will be stopped (wrong).

now here's the thing:
F.Hiro was right in one thing, Hiro needed to go back and kill Sylar. If he didn't do that, there would have been no way to stop Peter from exploding, cause of Sylar, Peter was unstable because of Sylar, not even Nathan would have been able to fly off with Peter (had he chosen not to evacuate the city, and help Peter) because of Sylar.

WHAT CHANGED?: Nathan changed, Claire was alive, he talked to Nathan, It was her (and Peter as well) who made an impact in Nathan's decision to help Peter. She wouldn't let people stop her from helping Peter stop the bomb.

HOW CAN WE TELL THIS WAS THE REASON? Simple, Peter had the dream (one of Peter unexplained powers) where he is the bomb and Nathan comes to him..., the moment he saves Claire, in Texas. So yes, By saving the cheerleader, he saved the world, all they needed was Hiro to stop Sylar so that Nathan could fly off with Peter

Hiro has his motivation, and decides to kill Sylar

3 - The third, and actual, timeline begins. Hiro goes back, stabs Sylar, Sylar [SPOILER - highlight to read]: escapes, Nathan helps Peter, and the bomb explodes above the skyline of NYC and all it's saved. Hiro doesn't know Peter it's the bomb, because he gets thrown into the past (something that didn't happened to F.Hiro it seems) but he finally changes the future (or the past either way you see it). But it was Peter all along, In all 3 time lines Peter was always the bomb.

Sylar escaped the first timeline bomb, because he had Claire's power (much like Peter [SPOILER - highlight to read]: survives being the bomb), How did he survived the 2nd timeline bomb?, I presumed the same way he would have the 3rd, by escaping [SPOILER - highlight to read]: or being rescued.

Better reason: It's a TV show, they couldn't let their best villain go M.I.A. It was a brilliant plot device, to have him being blame for the bomb, only to reveal that he wasn't dead, he was posing as Nathan, he was responsible for the dark future (not the future Linderman, Angela and the others have planned), probably Sylar killed Linderman too....

how does F.Peter still have that scar? the same way. It was a concept used when F.Hiro appeared in the 4th episode. The show wasn't at all completely written yet, they didn't even know if the show was going to get pick up for a full 1st season. When it did, they decided to keep the scar because it was "too cool to let go"... that was explained by one the writers of the show.
Those are things that happen. Shows and latter episodes are rewritten as the season goes, characters that are meant to go, are kept for a few more episodes based on popularity, or how they need them or used on the show...

... now that's what I think explains it.....


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Last edited by S_D_J on Dec 8th, 2007 at 03:57 AM

Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 03:46 AM
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REXXXX
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In regards to the "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World," Future Hiro likely thought that that was the turning point; Sylar is, apparently, the Bomb in the timeline before Future Hiro turns back the clock and delivers his message.

However, all he did was make Peter the Bomb...

I'll go with consensus and say that Nathan was the turning point.

As great as Heroes is to watch, they have trouble making relevant points, from time to time...


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 07:48 AM
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Actually I agree with S D J on pretty much everything and think that's pretty much all of it.

Except, Peter could have survived being the bomb the whole time possibly because he had Ted's powers and Ted himself seemed immune to them. All that radiation he was leaking out and after the events of company man he never seemed physically effected by it.

So Peter was simply possibly just the ground zero for the bomb and therefore actually unaffected by it. Even in Four months ago when he is flying back to catch Nathan after detonating he appears to have little damage for someone that just blew up. His cloths are even fairly well unharmed considering a nuclear explosion just happened inside them.

If they'd really been able to be effected by it like Peter supposedly did they would be completely vaporized correct?

Well at least that's what Entity and I have come to conclude.

Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 09:13 AM
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Ushgarak
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Grateful as I am for the analysis, I feel much of what SDJ says has already been covered.

He states that by saving the cheerleader he saved the world, but as mentioned, this is manifestily not true. Hiro was going to stab Sylar anyway as we know full well. Sayling Claire changed Nathan does not work. When saved, Nathan still did not stop the bomb. It didn't seem to be anything to do with Claire whatsoever.

Second, saying Sylar escaped llike in season 2... is not really adequate. In season 2, Sylar was not next to the bomb because Nathan flew it away. This is not true in the second timeline.

We're having to speculate the change is Nathan, is the point. There is no actual clear indication of the issue.

And remember, the change has to be something that happenes after 'Five Years Gone' but before the finale. Anything that hasppens before Five Years Gone clearly was not the change, because FYG proves that it did not work!

Therefore the change must come from one of Hiro's actions that he would not otherwise have done.

This pretty much only gives you the final three episodes.

I also still see no great reason to think Sylar was the bomb originally. I do not see why that would have changed at all.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 8th, 2007 at 12:33 PM

Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 12:19 PM
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S_D_J
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I cannot think of any other reason

though there's one thing: I cannot prove any of the following, I think I read it somewhere, can't remember, so just take this as mere speculation:

The season was supposed to be made of 22 episodes, but seeing how popular the show became, the studio order one more episode for the season (fact):
Now, "5 years gone" (can't prove it rite now) was that episode. everything that happened in it had no impact (other than motivating Hiro) in the main storyline, because it was all changed, and that future never came to happen.
Take that episode out, and what you're left with it's how it all happened. Hiro stabs Sylar, Nathan flies off with Peter and all it's saved

the problem it's how the 2nd timeline came to happen. If it didn't happen at all, you still have enough motivation, from the moment Peter saves Claire till the bomb explodes, to have Nathan being the one who changes and helps Peter...

.... that's all I can't think at the moment...

an extra episode that created a plot-hole


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 01:57 PM
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HueyFreeman
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Grateful as I am for the analysis, I feel much of what SDJ says has already been covered.

He states that by saving the cheerleader he saved the world, but as mentioned, this is manifestily not true. Hiro was going to stab Sylar anyway as we know full well. Sayling Claire changed Nathan does not work. When saved, Nathan still did not stop the bomb. It didn't seem to be anything to do with Claire whatsoever.

Second, saying Sylar escaped llike in season 2... is not really adequate. In season 2, Sylar was not next to the bomb because Nathan flew it away. This is not true in the second timeline.

We're having to speculate the change is Nathan, is the point. There is no actual clear indication of the issue.

And remember, the change has to be something that happenes after 'Five Years Gone' but before the finale. Anything that hasppens before Five Years Gone clearly was not the change, because FYG proves that it did not work!

Therefore the change must come from one of Hiro's actions that he would not otherwise have done.

This pretty much only gives you the final three episodes.

I also still see no great reason to think Sylar was the bomb originally. I do not see why that would have changed at all.
later on we see that claire met up with Bennet who had Parkman and Ted with him. Without the bridge of Claire , "How would Peter have met Ted"? This may explain why Peter was not the original bomb in timeline one. Since Sylar was tracking metahumans, he may have found ted on his own without them showing up at the plaza.


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Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 03:32 PM
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Well, that's possible, I suppose, but it is very speculative, Because even if we assume that we remove the way that Peter met ted, we'e also removed the way Sylar met him.

So you can make up another reason Sylar finds Ted, as you have there, but then equally we could make up another reason why Peter meets Ted. It doesn't really hammer the point home.

But I think it should be a good principle to assume that as little is as changed as possible- because Future Hiro seemed to recognise just about everything about the world. He didn't even know anything had changed at all.

Still, it's not imppssible Sylar was the original bomb. If the makers end up confirming he is then, ok. I just dpon't see any reason to think there is a changhe there, as it stands.

But then what the heck was Peter doing in timeline 1? Hiro knows Peter as a scarred guy with lots of powers, just as he was in timeline 2, so most of what he did must have been the same.

See. what I think is more likely that in timeline 1, Hiro stabs Sylar, but Sylar regenerates, and so therefore Nathan cannot get to Peter, whether Natahn wanted to or not. Hence Peter explodes. That strikes me as the simplest outcome. Hiro time jumps away before the confrontation is over and doesn't see the ending- just as he does in the REAL timeline (though without getting lost in the past).

In timeline 2, Hiro stabs Sylar, this time Sylar doesn't regenerate, but lives on just as he does in the final, true outcome. The only problem with that is that Sylar is now next to the explkosion when it happens. Hmm.

Unfortunately future Hiro no longer remembers this as he is messing around with time, so he cannot fill us in, but for some reason, having done this, Nathan does not fly Peter away.

Also for some reason, despite so many things being similar, Hiro does not end up in feudal Japan. That's VERY weird, as it happened before the bang and should have gone down the same way.

I'll tell you what I thought it was going to be- it was that in timeline 2 Sylar kills Nathan first (and can then escape the bomb by flying away). But no reason to think that, unfortunately. Seems more likely Sylar kills Nathan after the bomb.

(Abother reason that would have worked well, btw, is that Peter does not know Nathan is dead, and hence would have thought Syalar died when he (Peter) blew. Which fits with him not knowing Sylar is around in FYG).


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Dec 8th, 2007 at 04:35 PM

Old Post Dec 8th, 2007 04:21 PM
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