Auron has almost no feats... but that doesn't mean he is weak, though. We can't really tell what he can actually do in a fight. Other than his battle animations, I do not recall anything, so it's really hard to debate with or against him.
I guess Dart has the upper hand if he uses his Dragoon form, mostly because Auron doesn't look like agile nor fast. But on the other hand, regular Dart can't fly, can't manipulate any type of energy nor cast magic. His Additions are just normal slashes with some cool names (like Volcano or Moon Strike), I mean, nothing special.
His Overdrives involves magical energy, like Dragon Fang, Banishing Blade or Tornado, whereas Dart's (in his regular form) doesn't. That's what I meant.
Okay, we agree that Dart (in his Dragoon form) would win. But how we do know that Dart (in his regular form) would win against someone who has no showings?
I thought. Twas bored. And don't remember enough of FFX to be sure that I was right in my intial conclusion anyway, perhaps someone could have proven me wrong.
Not that I really care, as Dart seems more like the type of character I'd support anyway, but doesn't Auron and the FFX party like, run through a field of lightning at one point?
Just saying that could be a good feat...if properly wanked.
Well, at least that's something. But... What that shows anyway?
I never said that Auron would beat Dart. You implied Dart would beat Auron, if I am not mistaken. I just ask, how do we know that Dart would win when we never get to see what Auron is capable of?
For example, you can say that Dart wins based on what Auron IS capable of, that's a valid argument. But you can't say Auron is weaker than Dart because Auron has no showings.
That's like saying I'm stronger than a guy because that guy hasn't shown to be stronger than me. That guy can't probably be stronger, but the reasoning used to reach said conclusion is fallacious.
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Last edited by GrieverSquall on Oct 12th, 2010 at 07:54 PM
This does not require an external analogy as the situation is simple as per the standards we've set on this subforum; Winners can be awarded as a means of default.
We have here two characters with similar enough placements as great swordsmen in their respective worlds. Its a logical match up thus. One has great feats to the OP's knowledge, one is more hazy to the OP, but from the basic recollection was not out of the realm for the former character to beat within specified parameters.
Basically, Dart can/does win by default if Auron does not have an argument for him.
It isn't any external analogy, it's logic. You've claimed regular Dart is stronger than Auron, right? What's your argument?
I'm just saying that we never get to know Auron's true abilities besides his Overdrives. So we can neither say he wins or loses for that. Auron's potential or whatever is totally unknown for us, unless someone provide something concerning his speed, strength, etc, which I highly doubt anyway.
That's just wrong, if you claim Dart would win, then you should back up the claim. You can't say Dart wins because Auron has no arguments going for him, mostly because Dart does not have any argument going for him either. Neither you can say Dart has feats, Auron doesn't, thus Dart wins, that IS a fallacious argument. Back up your claim first.
GreiverSquall is right, in this case. You cannot claim someone is stronger than another because they have feats and the other doesn't. If Auron truly has no means for gauging his abilities, then we simply cannot know.
That's an "argument from ignorance" fallacy. You're basically arguing that Auron isn't stronger because you can't show otherwise. But obviously the simple fact that there is no evidence supporting something does NOT make the opposite true.
-Lets see what I said in the beginning, I said Dart could win without the Dragoon form yes? Why? Because I knew Auron's relative durability levels before hand, so Dart being able to hit Auron was the only requisite required to know that victory was possible in the stipulation I set.
-Your analogy, (a structure of logic in the first place) is inapplicable to this situation. Auron is not some random individual you or I know nothing about and can only conjecture about.
He HAS done things, we see him do things the entire game, its just that nothing is impressive enough to warrant being labeled a feat. Thus is his curse.
-We also have a framework to work with, Tidus and Wakka have some nice peak human + agility levels due to them being high level blitz ball players. Auron is of course, is not meant to be as agile as them as his stats and showings will reflect.
-The only fallacious thing is attributing him to have some hidden 'potential' when his depictions do not suggest that there is any. He was not holding back during his showings or had any reference to make them appear any greater than what a normal human could theoretically do. For example, when he attacked Yunalesca, he was not running any faster than possible for a human or swinging his likely ~4.5 kilogram sword any faster than would be expected of an in-shape human. He was then promptly brought down by a small blast. (That was the durability level I kept in mind with my original statement by the way)
That's ultimately what people mean when they call Auron 'featless'. He's not an unknown quantity, it's just what he does isn't impressive. The benefit of the doubt is why he even gets the peak human category at all (overall, not everything about him is peak) it seems, as most will reason that an average human will not be able to do his job.
Anyway, this thread is more or less done. This was posted on another forum with more posts as well and none of them put Auron's showings above peak human either. I came in hazy, but it seems I wasn't missing anything from him.
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Last edited by CosmicComet on Oct 13th, 2010 at 07:39 PM
Friend, this IS a fight. If it's not something related to his potential as a fighter, then what Auron supposedly does is irrelevant. We just know he's an experienced swordsman and a Guardian, but it's not something very useful. We don't have an accurate frame of reference to gauge his abilities other than his Overdrives. A feat is not necessarily nor always related to someone's strengths either. A feat can be considered as a different type of achievement.
Auron is not portrayed to be as agile as Tidus. However, despite of that, Auron is (at the beginning of the game) stronger and years more experienced in combat than him. Auron is portrayed as Tidus' mentor, and the one who gave him his first sword. Plus, did Auron had any kind of trouble when Sin attacked Zanarkand? Apparently he was doing just fine, is Tidus the one who almost gets killed in the process.
Who said something about a 'hidden potential'? I believe I said that claiming someone wins over another simply for the lack of showings, it's an invalid argument, THAT WAS ALL. Yunalesca is damn powerful and Auron was facing her by himself, if Auron wasn't holding back, what makes you think she was? We just likely see the end of that battle and the whole thing is in slow-motion, so I dunno why you claim stuff about his speed. Plus, wasn't Auron like 10 years younger? How do you know he's still as strong as he used to be in that occasion?
And what he DOES? He does a bunch of things, every character, even the most insignificant, is seen in screen doing 'something', but if it's not something concerning the topic at hand, then is irrelevant, some characters may do battle-related stuff outside gameplay, but others doesn't. I am not claiming Auron would win (because you seem to think I do), I just disagree with the kind of argument you're pulling to combat him. In order to claim Dart is... let's say... 'physically stronger' than Auron, we require something that shows both character's physical strength, you can't say Dart has a strength feat, Auron doesn't, thus Dart is stronger, you just can't. The: 'Dart has feats, Auron doesn't', thus Dart wins' line of reasoning is fallacious. End of story.
Oh my, not meaning to bump old threads. But this was left on a horrible note.
Being a fan of both of these games, it makes me angry that its been left like this.
With all seriousness how is Auron not stronger than Dart?
Auron: Carrying a Long, Huge ass Two handed sword. (oh I forgot to add with ease.)
Dart: Has this pewny looking sword comparing it to Aurons.
its one handed. and Dart can carry it with ease as well.
Auron handles his sword like a champ, because if you ever watched him attack something, its like he slices it as if he is slicing butter.
Dart almost has trouble hitting his targets. plus when playing that game anyway its on a time-guided system. So you give him like 2-5 shots to Auron's one.
Plus what feats does Dart have besides his Dragoon form?
Auron if Gone though his Sphere grid Learns Silencing shot and junk like that. What can Dart put up with against that?
Auron's speed is actually fast, when you encounter him in the Blitzball stadium he Runs, jumps about 100 feet or so and lands like he just hopped off of the back of a truck.
doesnt even have to put a hand on the ground for stability.
Can Dart do that?
Pretty much nothing you said, like the poster above you, means a thing without elaboration.
Dart does win though. Due to feats such as taking powerful explosions with little or no injury, being shown to react to Lloyd's super speed, and I recall a feat that made him class 30ish or so.
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Oct 12th, 2010 04:36 AM
