Registered: Jun 2005
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Yes. Sidious wtf pwns sion. Sion was never stated to be "immortal" i believe, he himself stated that only on malachor is he able to keep fighting due to the immense dark side energies and even if this took place on malachor whats to keep sidious from using the dark side energies itself for his own benefit?
I'll make this short since this same old discussion has been done before .
First of Revan's most powerful form is the lightside (canon) jedi at the end of kotor. Malak says he was more powerful as a jedi than as Darth Revan And Yoda was stated in the revenge of the sith novel to be the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known"
exact quote fromt he revenge of the sith novel is
Yoda who was the most powerful jedi ever up until that point. So that alone puts Yoda above Revan. And Yoda could not defeat ROTS Sidious and by DE Sidious is more powerful than he was in Revenge of the Sith. Sidious>Revan
Funny. I'd give this to Darth Sion myself. His ability to cheat death indicates an enormous level of power, and it's something that was -as far as we know- completely exclusive to Sion. Sidious certainly wasn't able to physically cheat death. Nothing indicates that Sidious would be able to bypass the ability. Sion ftw!
Supposition and speculation. Prove that Sion's "immortality" (which is hardly infallible since he died) is indicative of "enormous level of power" -- perhaps willpower (which is irrelevant when in combat against a Force user of Palpatine's caliber) -- since Sion has demonstrated no destructive Force energies or prowess outside of this one particular trait that might make him anything special. Hell, the other powerhouse of the era, Nihilus, who has demonstrated a remarkable level of Force usage, was far from being "immortal" and yet in the cut content, he was able to subdue and overpower Sion without any difficulty, albeit he was unable to kill him. Much like on Heroes, Claire Bennet is gifted with cellular regeneration on such a level that she is truly "invincible" and yet she's easily subdued and outmatched by Sylar, who is very much mortal. He might not have invincibility, but his power is well in excess of hers. Same for Sidious.
As already proven, Sion's psuedo-immortality isn't necessarily indicative of power. This is irrelevant.
In conclusion, no, this line of thought is irrevocably false. Sion is facing an opponent whose power, knowledge, and overall prowess is well in excess of his own. As for his immortality, assuming Sidious doesn't use the Force to vegetate Sion or keep KO'ing him from here to eternity, or even -- since you seem to enjoy supposition and speculation -- possess Sion outright, he could always break Sion's will, being a master of Dun Moch and a peerless manipulator of others.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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Uh yes sidious is. TNEC DESB stated sidious > revan and sion, and the dark empire comics actually SHOWS sidious being the most powerful sith lord in history.
How i forgot, sion himself stated that the ability to keep on fighting is only avalible at planets deeply immersed in the dark side of the force, and places where any dark sider would be at an advantage, even sidious and along with the fact that he(sion) is fighting some one who posess greater knowledge of the force and fighting an opponent whom is highly resourceful
Reported
Last edited by BoratBorat on Nov 26th, 2007 at 04:59 AM
Supposition and speculation? Wow, that's not only nonsensical, but it doesn't even make sense!
In all seriousness, it's not speculation. Sion possessed wounds that should essentially be killing him, yet he lives, and he outright claims to the Exile that he can be struck down a hundred times yet still rise. Not only is Darth Sion in a position to know of such a thing and not lie about it, but this is the game's way of setting up how great a threat Sion was to further add to the drama and hopelessness of the story.
Immortality? Immortality is essentially the act of not aging, and being unable to die. Sion is essentially actively keeping himself alive and cheating death. Nothing suggest he doesn't age. You're confusing the word 'immortality' with 'invincibility' here, Gideon, not that it matter anyway. [/nitpick]
Wow, so you're going to attempt to undermine his ability by using evidence of what happens when he actively chooses to stop using it? Astonishing.
Wow, so you're gonna argue that someone who wasn't extremely powerful with the force can achieve something so phenomenal with it that no one else was able to? Your question is ludicrous, and very one-sided. You won't see me asking you to prove that Palpatine's Force Storms are indicative of his power, would you? No, you wouldn't, because it's so damn obvious that the proof isn't really required. Fact is, Sion was able to achieve what no one else has been able to, and his ability makes him near unstoppable in a battle scenario. To achieve remarkable feats that no on else has been able to with the force would suggest to anyone who actually possesses a brain that his ability to wield the force is obviously quite adept.
You wanna argue that it's all down to willpower? Not only is it your burden of proof, given that you're asserting it, but even if it were the case, why exactly would that not apply in other areas of force use? In KotOR, Revan, when asked for a description of the force by a Rakatan on Lehon, actually outright claims that those with a high enough willpower should be able to bend the force completely to their will. Numerous descriptions on "willpower" as a gameplay statistic outright claim that it has a direct effect on power (as in potency). Sidious himself was championed as having an extremely great willpower, and his most powerful technique, the force storm, by its own description, draws heavily on the user's willpower. Fact is, willpower has an extremely large effect on one's ability with the force so it wouldn't even matter if Sion's ability speaks purely for his willpower
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sion hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so. Sion appears in a few scenes within a Video Game FFS!
Prowess? Not only was he championed as the head of a sect of Sith Assassins, but he displays a phenomenal level of dexterity when slicing off Kreia's hand in one move. If tha's not prowess, I don't know what is.
1. Goes to show that even against more powerful opponents, his ability truly does provide an enormous advantage.
2. Nihilus is a cosmic being. Being overpowered by him doesn't not make you a powerhouse. His mere presence tangibly effects those around him, he was able to consume the life on an entire planet, and his awareness is on a planetary level. Sidious wouldn't do any better, he'd do worse actually, and die.
That analogy is completely off. Sion, like all force users, is able to manipulate a power source for a number of different uses. His ability to cheat death, and all his other abilities, draw power from the same source. Claire has access to one ability...
Un-proven, as it stands.
Line of thought? I just stated two straight facts. No line of thought in that part of my post, you'll find, Gideon.
Unsupported.
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Lol.
Nothing indicates that Sidious has that kind of power over Sion. Assuming that Sidious wouldn't be able to do those things would be the logical stance. Assuming that he could would be silly.
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Lol.
Nothing indicates that Sidious has that kind of power over Sion. Assuming that Sidious wouldn't be able to do those things would be the logical stance. Assuming that he could would be silly.
That easy, huh? Being a Master of Dun Moch alone doesn't mean that he'll be able to just make someone give up the will to keep fighting, and his manipulations have only ever shown to be successful when he plays them out nice and long, and doesn't rush anything. It would be ridiculous to assume that his manipulations would help him in a fast paced battle scenario, when nothing indicates it. As for Sion, he doesn't automatically have a small willpower simply because he lost it, one time, under very specific circumstances. The fact that Kreia cared for the Exile more than she did for Sion is what made him give up the will to live. The same does not apply with Sidious, and given that he doesn't have any personal bond with Sion or Kreia that would enable him to exploit his weakness, and given that nothing indicates that Sidious' manipulative ability would be helpful in a one-on-one fast paced battle scenario (certainly doesn't happen in any of his battle featured in Canon), it's ridiculous to assume such.
Last edited by Ultra Omega on Nov 26th, 2007 at 02:23 PM
Mostly unsupported, and the bit about Sion only being able to fight on darkside immersed worlds? I call bullshit. He's seen fighting on a Republic Ship in Outer Space in a hologram.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
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I never said that idiot, i said he stated that only on worlds which are deeply immersed in the dark side of the force where he is capable of fully using his "immortality" whereas the capability of not being able to fall so easily
For being the sock of nebaris, The way you structure your sentences, your constant down playment of sidious, your grammer pretty much indicates that you ARE nebaris
We also have zero proof of Sion managing to make it through decapitation, loss of limbs....
This 'Sion is unkillable' stuff focuses on gameplay mechanics alone. Slashed, shot up? Sure. How about if Palpatine cuts Sion in half? Takes his head off? How exactly will Sion beat that? This is plain silly.
...They're pretty much the same thing. Dictionary.com lists them as synonyms. So, essentially, what I said was redundant but not nonsensical. Kind've like your statement: "Wow, that's not only nonsensical, but it doesn't even make sense!"
Pitiful reasoning. Sion's claims are just that -- claims -- and you expecting me to adhere to them based on the conclusion that "he's not in a position to lie!" (which is hilarious, since Sion is a Sith Lord and is thus deceitful by nature) and that he "knows such things!" without supporting it is ridiculous. Suffice it to say that things aren't fact because you state them, Nebaris, and if you want me to take your reasoning seriously, you'll do me the favor of proving it to be so.
This is irrelevant. Dictionary.com defines immortality as "endless life" and invincible as "incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued". In this case, Sion was neither, so in truth, he was neither immortal or invincible.
He was manipulated into such an action by the Exile. Based on all canon evidence, it is highly reasonable to assume that Palpatine could do the same. You disagreeing is astonishing.
That's right. You're basing this off of the unsupported assumption that Sion had to be "uber" with the Force to become psuedo-immortal/invincible. However, Sion hasn't demonstrated anything approaching the Emperor's level of Force mastery, so for all we know, his psuedo-immortality/invincibility was achieved through an application of willpower, rage, and Force power. Kind've like how Palpatine's Force Storm (which dwarfs anything destructive on Sion's part) was an application of knowledge, willpower, and Force power.
Sadly, it would. Willpower =/= massive Force power in all areas. Leia Organa Solo was able to resist the Empire's interrogation techniques and those of Darth Vader himself. Where is her upper tier demonstration of Force power, then? She doesn't have any. Her connection to the Force is mighty, but it doesn't do her any good. She's still not an upper tier Force user or combatant, despite having a connection to the Force that outstrips... what... 99% of the SW mythos? Your assertion that willpower = talent in all areas of the Force is ridiculous.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence? H'okay.
Lmao. You're fellating him because he cut off a Sith historian's hand and was the head of a bunch of weak-ass Sith assassins? So far, he's not stacking up against Darth Maul -- let alone Palpatine.
An enormous advantage? Hahaha. He got back up and... left. Like a b1tch who had just been whipped by a newspaper. What advantage? What was he going to do, exactly?
Prove it. Palpatine was also, by the way, able to consume life on a planetary level, that he did it over the course of years to prolong his lifespan demonstrates a much more profound control over it than Nihilus.
Sadly, the analogy isn't. You've only proven that Sion is adept in only one "major" technique, his psuedo-immortality/invincibility.
You're right. Your stance is "unproven, as it stands".
Facts are statements of truth. Your assumptions don't qualify.
Sorry, but no. Palpatine has demonstrated speed, strength, experience, and knowledge on numerous occasions that vastly outstrip Sion's own. His power? Would we really need to go into detail? Likewise, I can always use the quotes from canon sources. Like it or not, Nebaris, this route has been closed off for you.
It applies. Psuedo-immortality.
"Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sidious hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so."
Redundant, but applies.
"Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Provide proof of necessity, or drop the point. As long as Sidious hasn't needed to display such, the fact that he doesn't relates in no way to his ability to do so."
Sorry, but no. Palpatine's the unquestioned manipulator of the SW mythos. Manipulating your sworn enemy for years while sitting in the very same room as you? Manipulating a galactic-spanning institution into giving you supreme power? Turning the being destined to destroy you into your ***** for twenty years? Tempting his son to join the dark side? Manipulating the Bothan Spynet? I could go on and on and on and on. Sad fact of the matter that Palpatine is more than capable of manipulating Sion into giving up his psuedo-immortality/invincibility after he gets tired of kicking the shit out of him all over the environment.
Assuming you're not banned, Nebaris, I'll talk to you later.
Nov 25th, 2007 04:49 AM
