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If Dooku can't use the Force against them, the duo wins. The novelization and Complete Visual Dictionary indicate that the Count was being driven back by their concerted efforts and was only able to turn the tide when using his superior command of the Force to attack Obi-Wan.
To be fair, Dooku was actively trying to not kill them for quite a while and was he ever trying to kill Anakin? Plus they lured him into a false sense of security and extended the fight, which wasn't good for the 70 year old Count.
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[Dooku]That is not the way of the dark side![/Dooku]
The reason Dooku wasn't trying to kill them initially was because he was under the [arrogant] impression he was so skilled that he could toy with them. When it became evident that he could not, he upped the ante and still had to bring the Force to bear to even the odds.
*80 year old and the protracted fight wasn't the problem, it was that Skywalker was getting stronger as the fight progressed. Duration had little to do with it.
The movie, which is better canon, doesn't coincide with that observation. SW canon policy dictates that I accept the movie view and its viable interpretations versus something spoonfed to me from a different source.
Original Souce + personal argument married with objective interpretation of fight = win.
Secondary source based on original source without any objective specifics which can be further verified through empirical study of original source = fail.
Dooku is 83 btw.
To be fair, I was at work all day, so those two votes aren't mine.
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There is no contradiction between film and novelization on this issue. Dooku is constantly driven back by Anakin and Obi-Wan, something supported by the script and The Complete Visual Dictionary. So I have two sources personally approved and/or written by George himself in addition to a third versus your interpretation of a film.
That's certainly an interesting way to describe it, seeings how your "objective interpretation" conflicts with three other sources. I see you're still under the impression you're Leland Chee reincarnated.
i kno silly
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: Do you still blow his... er... "birthday candle" on those special occasions?
Seriously, what kind of incompetent buffoon would create a thread and then set a three day time limit on the poll?!
I propose that anybody who has yet to vote to vote randomly or set their vote to "Inconclusive." so as to nullify the poll and send a message to whichever douchebag created it that it is not good form to make such asinine blunders in the Star Wars Versus Forum, no it is not!
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No?
As far as I recall, the novelization starts with Dooku rather easily dealing with the Jedi, because of them using "wrong" forms. Than they switch to their "real" styles and start kicking Dooku's ass, with some very effective teamwork. I didn't see any of that happen in the movie.
In the movie, Dooku just seems to give ground constantly, outmanouvering the two Jedi, which culminates in him removing Obi-Wan from the fight, before being defeated by Anakin.
I wonder, where you've found the support of that notion in the script. Because, using the link you've given, one can only discover this here:
COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry.
The crucial point is, that this very thread here assume, that Zonakin is not allowed here, forcing us to make a guess about Anakins "every day skill" in comparison to that of Dooku. This, from my point of view, is rather hard, because whenever the two did meet in direct confrontation, Dooku gave Anakin a reason to become angry, which could already lead to him being stronger than in his "usual" condition.
Futhermore, we don't have any idea, how fast Dooku would be able to deal with Kenobi or Anakin based on his bladework. Neither do we have an idea, if Anakin or Kenobi (or the two together) could muster sufficient skill to overcome Dooku, based on their "regular" condition.
Dooku is probably the character, that has the greatest actual experience when it comes to facing more than one lightsaber wielding opponent. Yet, he was never forced to deal with such situations without use of his (offensive) force abilities. In such situation, he might attempt to get rid of one of his opponents with is bladework, that is based on counterattacks. The most likely target for such an attempt would be Anakin.
Can Anakin avoid that to happen, with his own skill and the help (and distraction) that Kenobi can offer? I'm not sure, if the Count wouldn't be able to outmanouver the duo and kill one of them, even without utilizing offensive force attacks. It's imagineable at least. Likewhise, its also possible, that Kenobi and Anakin together would overcome the Sith Lord in a sheer melee fight. Yet, I would think that this could be harder than it probably looks.
So I'd have to support the notion, that this fight is inconclusive.
Just to comment on that: No, you haven't.
Even the German translation of the novelization was released before the movie, meaning that the original version must have been finished months before the movie. This means that it is absolutely impossible, that the novelization depicts Lucas final vision of the fight - which would be present in the movie version.
The script attributes Dooku being forced back to Anakins rising aggression, which would mean a boost of his combat abilities - something that is not present in the very setup for this fight, hence not qualifying as an argument in favor for the duo. Leaves the Complete Visual Dictionary, which you didn't quote.
So, as far as here, you have nothing to question the interpretation of Janus.
This appears to imply, that the other sources to represent "objective interpretations" of the fight. This while one of them was written, before the final version of the fight was produced (the novel), the second one just offering descriptions that are pretty inconclusive (the script) and without any hint of what exactly the third might say. Rather weak argument. Especially, when you consider, that the other sources also just offer interpretations of the fight. That they are written by LFL authors doesn't mean that they are correct, because usually they don't take all the underlying facts into consideration.
I didn't see the script pointing out, that Dooku was commanded not to kill Anakin, which is something that we know. Neither do I imagine, that the Complete Visiual Dictionary would mention this as influencing factor for what we see on screen. But it is something that has to be taken into consideration when analysing the fight. Do your sources do that? The same can be said, about Dooku taunting Anakin to an extend, in which he goes into the zone, which is the deciding factor of the fight on screen. This also has to be taken into account, especially in a thread that denies this advantage to Skywalker. Do your sources do that?
If not, I would find it rather to question the interpretation of Janus based on them - and much harder to come up with a conclusive judgement about who would win here, with the latter thing attributed to the setup of this thread.
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Yeah, I just saw where it said Anakin can't become Zonakin. I retract the argument and agree that the fight is inconclusive.
For future reference, Neph, use "Zonakin" rather than Super Saiyan because I had no idea what that meant until I just Googled it.
The duel in Revenge of the Sith depicts Dooku constantly on the defensive against Obi-Wan and Anakin, driven back across the room before using the Force to hurl Kenobi aside. When one compares this with Dooku's relatively casual handling of both combatants in Attack of the Clones, it is difficult to see how he's "outmaneuvering" either of them. The novelization supports this view; the narrative result is still the same even if all the details aren't: Dooku wasn't able to win against the two of them without using the Force offensively to even the odds. Likewise, the script also supports the novelization's conclusion that Dooku was tiring throughout the duel whereas Anakin's strength was increasing, and this was prior to Dooku's taunts once Kenobi is rendered unconscious. Additionally, where was Dooku commanded specifically not to kill Anakin? The goal was to test him and the dialogue in Labyrinth of Evil and George's commentary on the issue indicates that Dooku was to give it his all.
The idea that he was somehow in control the entire time and not struggling is unsupported. That Janus interprets the events of the films a certain way doesn't give him the authority to disregard a G-canon source and another source that might as well be G-canon because of George's thorough line-editing of it.
Moreover, the idea that the novelization and visual guide are somehow to be disregarded due to the release date doesn't work unless one can prove that the fight scene in question was still being choreographed, edited, or otherwise worked on after their release.
Last edited by Turr_Phennir on Sep 5th, 2011 at 10:25 PM
Sep 3rd, 2011 05:53 PM
