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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Shado Vao vs. Eeth Koth


Shado Vao vs. Eeth Koth
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carthage
PLEASE PROTECT ME STONES

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Shado Vao vs. Eeth Koth

Force, sabers, all out


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2014 07:45 AM
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Q99
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Shado Vao has the edge. It should be a fight, but Vao has more dueling feats under his belt (*ton* of sith kills, plus long fights with two of Krayt's inner circle, Talon and Maladi), and some of the strongest duelists by Legacy are impressed by his skill (Ganner Krieg wonders the possibility of Vao being above him, or maybe even Draco, out loud. I doubt he's stronger than Draco, but...).

Force wise it's a bit closer, but they both use force-push. Vao also once ripped the lightsaber from a foe's hands, but I think Koth's good enough that that won't happen.


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2014 09:23 AM
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ILikeSoy
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These 3 posts are under 11k in character count

quote: (post)
Originally posted by HP Legend
Tiin and Darth Talon are quite similar in lighsaber combat. Their accolades are incredibly similar, and this gives us a very easy way to compare the two. Tiin is stated numerous times to be one of the best Lightsaber combatants in the order meanwhile Talon is stated to be one of the best duellists in Krayt's Empire (link). Now as to why this is relevant. You may be thinking but Arkham there's no way to compare the two. But there is. Krayt's Empire is directly compared to Malak and Revan's in terms of its power and overall Galactic Influence (link). Now of course Malak's Dark Jedi shared parity with the Jedi in KOTOR as is blatantly obvious by the confrontation between a Dark Jedi and a member of KOTOR's Jedi Order during the first mission in KOTOR (link) and the Jedi are stated to be at their peak in KOTOR.

Now of course I think there is evidence to the fact that the PT is the Jedi's peak, but this does indeed suggest parity between all 4 factions and any advantage is probably only slight.

So, we have:

PT Jedi=KOTOR Jedi=Malak's Sith Empire=Krayt's Sith Empire.

Now given how similar Talon and Tiin's accolades are and the fact that both Krayt's Empire and PT Jedi are comparable are I wouldn't say it's to much of a stretch to say Tiin=Talon in sabers.

So overall for Lightsaber Abilties we have Shado>Talon=Tiin.
If you're going to blindly build off of Malak/Revan's empire, then you have to actually look at the Empire and chain of command. Third in power is Darth Bandon. Forth is Uthar Wynn. What have they done that compares to sparring evenly - sparring is supposed to build skills and PRACTICE - with Mace Windu, and being compared to Kit Fisto (bested General Grievious in combat), Agen Kolar (easily bested Vos in combat, but we'll get to him later), and in general being compared as better than almost every Jedi in the Order? Even with your contention against Shaak Ti, the evidence more so favors Tiin over her than vice versa. A compromise can be reached to put her on his level, not so the opposite, but even if you strongly disagree with him being above Shaak, you have to admit that it has more merit than saying that Krayt's Empire = Malak's, and therefore all the Jedi are equal across all Eras?
You just scaled Talon to Darth Bandon/Uthar Wynn (featless), and then scaled that to PT and expect them to be equals, yet you later raise a fuss about Tiin being above Shaak.

How did you end up as Talon = Tiin though? Why not Plo Koon, Yoda, Mace; why Tiin? Similar accolades in a weak era do not make her randomly equal to Tiin.

Your accolade also contrasts them in terms of power over the galaxy, of which Malak's Empire had almost complete control. It wasn't comparing the actual power of every Sith contained within - not that you really want it to of course - but even then it doesn't follow along with your train of thought.

KOTOR being compared to the PT Era was contrasting the Jedi before they were completely devastated by the Great Sith War, not after.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Knights of The Old Republic: Campaign Guide/The same source you're using

The Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide focuses on the period
between the Great Sith War and the final destruction of the old Sith Empire. During this time, the galaxy is embroiled in one war after another, and the Jedi are all but wiped out. Gamemasters have several choices for when, specifically, they might set a Knights of the Old Republic campaign. The following section describes the major conflicts and eras of this time.

[...]

As the galaxy becomes embroiled in a conflict between the Sith and the Republic, many Jedi fight on either side of the battle. Some defend the Republic from their former comrades, while others are tempted by the lure of the dark side.

The Great Sith War takes an interesting turn with lasting repercussions
when Ulic Qel-Droma vanquishes Lord Mandalore in single combat. This
binds the Mandalorian clans to the Sith Lord, and he uses their prowess
and numbers to redouble the Sith war effort. With both the Krath and the
Mandalorians at their command, the Sith ravage the galaxy and deal the
Republic blow after blow, staggering their forces. As more and more Sith
train on the planet Korriban, thousands of Jedi die at the hands of Krath
and Mandalorian forces.

The tide turns once more in favor of the Republic as the brothers Ulic
and Cay Qel-Droma engage in a vicious duel on Ossus. After slaying Cay, a despondent Ulic surrenders to the Jedi Nomi Sunrider. Following his capture, the Republic begins an offensive that drives the forces of the Sith back, eventually shattering the Krath forces, routing the Mandalorians, and scattering the few remaining Sith to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Crippled by the prolonged war effort, the Republic cannot pursue the Sith forces, and Korriban remains under Sith control.

[...]

The Great Sith War is a devastating event that causes more damage than
any conflict since the Great Hyperspace War a thousand years before.
The Jedi Qrder, greatly depleted, turns inward to heal itself, increasing the
responsibilities of a Republic that is barely standing.

[...]

After a series of military failures, the Republic once again turns to the
Jedi Order for aid. Having been hit the hardest by the casualties of the Great Sith War, the Jedi Order refuses, at first, to join the military effort. However, among the Jedi are a few who cannot stand by while the Mandalorian invasion batters at the Republic's defenses, including a powerful Jedi called Revan. Revan leads other like-minded Jedi into battle once more, despite the Order's directive that they should not be involved. After victories against the Mandalorians, even more Jedi flock to Revan's call. Over time, the Republic cedes control of many of its military assets to the Jedi, and the Mandalorian Wars begin in full.

As battles rage across the galaxy, Mandalorians win victories against
the Republic and the Republic reclaims territories lost to the Mandalorians.
Quickly, Jedi such as Revan and his apprentice, Malak, become war heroes. After years of violent conflict, the Republic finally manages to repel the Mandalorians with a devastating victory at MalachorV. There, the Mandalorian forces are nearly wiped out. The surviving Mandalorians go into exile, and the Jedi are heralded as saviors of the Republic. Surprisingly, though. Revan and Malak gather the remnants of their fleets and flee into the Unknown Regions. For a short few months, peace reigns in the Republic once more, but questions surround the departure of the Jedi.

[...]

3,963 BBY: As the Republic continues to battle the Mandalorians across
all fronts, Revan attempts to persuade the Jedi Council to join the war. The
Council refuses, claiming that their losses during the Great Sith War were
too great.


[...]

From one end of the Knights of the Old Republic era to the other, the galaxy is constantly torn by wars, and times of peace seem more rare than times of conflict. Most of the heroes in a Knights of the Old Republic (except those set in the Great Sith War) will have experienced nearly a lifetime of war, and have likely felt the rippling effect of massive battles and horrific devastation. As such, the face of the galaxy is much different than in the classic era; the advent of the Clone Wars was a major event in the galaxy, while the Republic has already weathered two major wars by the time the Jedi Civil War begins.

ETC



However, if you do think a comparison such as this directly contrasts in power, then that would mean that the height of the Order = PT. Which would mean that Vandar Tokare, and Vrook Lamar are equal to Yoda and Mace Windu respectively. That's going to cause some problems outside this thread for trying to place Darth Traya, and Nihilus. smile



In summation:

The quote doesn't bring parity between random ranking members of the order, and even if it did, it doesn't mean much considering how pathetic the ranking members under Malak/Revan were. You're trying to assign random numbers to Jedi due to power over the galaxy by going backwards 4100 years, and then going forward 4000 years... It simply doesn't work. PT Era was impressive because of the individuals contained within, not simply for their accolades on influence/scope. And on that note, here's one more for you from that guidebook that shows they weren't actively scoping for talent:

quote:
"Unlike campaigns set in the classic era, Jedi, Sith, and other Force-sensitive groups are spread throughout the galaxy. Moreover, the Jedi Order has not been vigilant in scooping up members of other Force-using groups."


I think I've sufficiently rendered this whole section inert without sacrificing too many characters towards it.

Old Post Jan 13th, 2019 06:00 AM
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ILikeSoy
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by HP Legend
You see unlike Tiin Shado has impressive feats in sabers. He cut through seemingly endless waves of Sith Troopers while hindered by the Sith Temple which is a DS Nexus while Cade engaged in a long confrontation with Krayt. This is incredibly impressive and Tiin doesn't have any feats to compare to this (because he has none in the first place).
You posted him and 6 other users fighting 6 Sith and later his only feat from that sequence was beating a featless trooper. The two most powerful Sith were beaten by people not named him, and two others were shown cut down by the Imperials and his team. That leaves - after Cade leaves - Shado and his team (4 people total) to deal with 2 Sith and one random trooper.

Your other lightsaber feat is him not finding an equal in his blade, who we assume includes Darth Talon. Problem is they stalemated in lightsaber combat, and Shado even ran away from her with a group behind him. You also haven't included any reason why stalemating Talon or even being more skilled than her is impressive. All you've done is show she was one of the most skilled duelists in the Order and then likened it to Revan's time and then PT. That's it for his skill.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by HP Legend
Yeah sure I guess you could try to scale from Ti based on the fact that Tiin went to confront Sidious and not her but the problem lies in the fact that Ti stated that some of the order and been left behind to mount a defence in case Sidious attacked and the team failed (link) basically not putting all of their best into one mission in case of failure which is actually a much more tactical decision and makes more sense. Furthermore, all Saesee's accolades place him as one of the best Jedi not the best and the only thing to contradict this is Shaak's word but there's context to it. She's trying to reassure Anakin that the team would succeed and of course would exaggerate saying they are the orders best.
At best you've rallied for her being on their level, at worst, you made her less than them. Either way you haven't explained why he shouldn't be capable of the same things she's done, just explained why she's possibly lying to Anakin on her being worse than Tiin.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by HP Legend
The supposed advantage isn't nearly as massive as your making out. Sure, he has above average precognition because of his unique telepathic abilities but his precognition is noticably inferior to that of Anakin Skywalker's (I'll get on to why this is relevant in a sec). We know this via statements and scaling. During TPM as you know Anakin races pods and Qui Gon puts his talent down to him being "strong in the force" and him being able to "see things before they happen" which shows Anakin's pod racing talent is purely down to his strength in the force which gave him unnatural precognition. Now according to Labyrinth of Evil if Anakin hadn't joined the Jedi, he still would have been able to "fly rings around Saesee Tiin" which shows Anakin's precognition is significantly better than Tiin's as without any training in the use of his precognition he was still a better flier than Tiin and was able to fly rings around him. Anakin being a better pilot than Tiin is further supported by Obi wan in ANH saying, "he was the best star pilot in the galaxy". So overall Anakin's precognition outclasses Saesee's by a significant margin.

Now on to why this is relevant.

Anakin as of AOTC/Early TCW has better/equal Force Feats than Obi Wan which shows a general level of parity between the two. Now with his superior precognition and his equal Force feats surely Anakin should be the stronger of the two. Wrong! Obi Wan is stated to be stronger (link). This proves that Anakin’s precognition cannot make up the slight gap between the two which considering Anakin’s precognition surpasses Tiin’s it doesn’t bode well for him.


You argue general parity between Anakin/Obi-Wan here yet you raise a stink about Tiin's force possibly being better than Mace's, or a sparring match meaning anything.

That statement only accounts for his strength, not for his precog. And Anakin having better precog than Tiin, or Anakin's master possibly beating out precog does not extend to Shado or lower precog as a whole.

Not only that, but Tiin was using telepathy - actively reading his opponents mind - to figure out their next move, not merely predicting it. Tiin prides his ability and likens his advantage to it. Anakin precogging things has nothing to do with telepathy, and not posting anything for defense of Shado is a concession on your part.

Shado almost fell under influence of Karness Muur and Celeste Morne could sense his thoughts, in fact your picture is of the scene. His mind is not strong enough to resist passive telepathy from Tiin.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by HP Legend
Good for him. However, you've conveniently omitted the context of this to favour Tiin. Mace notes that it "isn't a competition" indicating he wasn't aiming to beat Tiin which is reinforced by his next line "precision is better than power". Mace wasn't throwing it as far as he could whereas Tiin was. In fact, as you yourself mentioned the comic is basically a debate between the two over precision vs power and Tiin favoured power in the opening exchange which is reinforced by him saying "his strength has never failed him" and that he's "hard headed".

Basically, any scaling from Mace based on this is pointless.

[snip]

As for the rest of the rest of Tiin’s TK feats Shado should logically be able them via scaling. Shado sent Cade Skywalker flying with a Force Push (link) and Darth Maladi also did something similar (link) who Shado is at least equal to since he was able to split her Force Lightning with no apparent difficulty (link). While this doesn’t exactly allow me to do much scaling from Cade given Force Pushes don’t exactly show equality it at least proves he isn’t fodder to Cade and given Cade could TK a massive ship (1,2,3,4) with ease Shado should be able to replicate Tiin’s showings as most of them aren’t that impressive.
First off, forest for the trees. He threw a what, 500 pound SB droid 4 kilometers? That's a greater feat than anything you've posted.

Second off that same Mace was the one who had the infamous Soloing an entire Droid army feat. While we can pretend that Mace was holding back his power there, it's unlikely that his casual blasts (like the ones used against SB Droids) were greater than the full power of Tiin, as evidenced by him out throwing Mace by an entire kilometer.

Third, Mace calls on Tiin's strength and once Tiin fails, Mace realizes he shouldn't even try. Which again backs up Mace being below Tiin.
However the only comparison between the two in the force has Tiin looking better. Jump through all the hoops you want but 3 times isn't an accident. That being said, even if, without any feats of Mace to put him above Tiin in direct opposition of evidence, we can at best leave them equal in that respect, and that's both good and bad for you. Good because it doesn't put Tiin greatly above Mace, but bad because it opens up access to Mace's feats; mostly, one-shotting Sora Bulq with a force push in Star Wars Jedi - Mace Windu. That same Sora (amped from Darkside) was portrayed as above Vos until he left himself open. Vos has been described as one of the most experienced Jedi in the Order, along a myriad of other feats. Essentially, this opens Tiin up to actually take out Jedi Master level beings with experience against other Jedi Masters. This and the B2s getting thrown kilometers isn't approachable by throwing salvage that doesn't appear to be too large in scale.


As for the huge ship; you can actually see the outline of it in the pictures you provided, which doesn't bode well for the size of it. In the pic of him lifting it, you can see the sides and the top of it, including blades of grass. Same with the sides when it hit Talon. It was a bit bigger than a human in comparison to humans. There was debris all over that planet, and Shado even gets one shotted by Talon when he gets force pushed into another pile of salvage in that issue in Star Wars Legacy 5. There is no indication it was that same ship in the background when that wasn't the only salvage, and the debris itself was barely shown bigger than Talon.

Old Post Jan 13th, 2019 06:05 AM
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ILikeSoy
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by HP Legend
Sparring is supposed to be impressive? They clashed blades a few times. This proves what exactly? Sparring is not an accurate measure of how well characters do in actual battles lol. And you haven't established that Mace and Tiin are peers.
Yes. While they might not fight to the death, they're still practicing to hone their own skills - to not lose in a real fight. It might not be indicative of a battle to the death between the two, but Mace doesn't spar to lose or look bad, as we saw when he embarrassed Vos in a spar in Star Wars Jedi - Mace Windu. A holding back Mace trying to get better due to sparring is a higher combatant than Shado has ever fought.

Moreover, you've accepted Tiin's accolades of being comparable to Kit/Kolar earlier. Kolar beat Vos fairly easily, and Vos, well, let's get back to him from earlier.

Vos fought Secura in a battle that a trained Clone could barely follow, indicating Tiin should be even faster and better than merely a "blur"
Vos gave a good battle to Sora Bulq at the height of his power who was a Lightsaber Instructor before falling to the darkside.
Vos stalemated Tholme, who even Count Dooku gave credit to his saber skills.

Intrinsically, from you accepting the accolades from Tiin, you give him general parity to Kolar in saber skills, and therefore put him above Vos. Couple that with his sparring against Mace Windu, and his only real low feat being against Darth Sidious, and you have no way to compare Shado to him in any capacity.



At best your arguments cast doubt on Tiin being above everyone named in this thread. Yet you've proven nothing on your side except that Shado can fight featless characters off panel, and that you can try and connect three eras through Influence only. That's assuming you succeeded by the way. In actuality:

You have no answer for Tiin's telepathy. You couldn't even post a response that even came close to answering it. And even if you could, you failed to tie it into Shado in anyway. The picture used for Shado for this debate is when his mind was getting messed with for that matter.

You have no answer for Tiin having general parity in lightsaber skills with Jedi Masters like Agen Kolar, Kit Fisto, and Shaak Ti, along with the myriad of feats that accompany them.

You have no answer for the few force feats Tiin has. You've misinterpreted a feat of Cade Skywalker, and at best your argument creates parity over Mace Windu, as opposed to superiority (like what the comic displays). Being portrayed as possibly in the realm or equal with Windu is in no ways a bad feat, as again, shown by him effortlessly putting down Sora Bulq, along with his army busting feat.

You've really failed to mount an offense at all. Trying to rally down accolades/feats slightly does not create an opportunity for Shado even if successful.

Your entire argument hinges on the voters believing that you can scale three eras based off their influence over the galaxy. Even if we accept this, you really don't want to compare Krayt's Sith to Revan's Sith, as it is not a very adroit tactic.

Tiin win easily. Judges, do not be deceived by this man.

Old Post Jan 13th, 2019 06:06 AM
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ILikeSoy
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Old Post Jan 13th, 2019 06:10 AM
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CuckedCurry

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Eeth dies

Old Post Jan 13th, 2019 08:45 AM
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HP Legend
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Dafuq?

Someone posted a rebuttal to my post that wasn't meant to be addressed by anyone other than Decaf.

Heck it was posted on CV not KMC.

Oh well I can easily get down to addressing this later if I get bored.


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Old Post Jan 13th, 2019 01:14 PM
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