__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
Actually, peak Scourge was a master warrior who could give Hot a good fight. It is most likely that he even lost on purpose. HoT by a lot of people is considered to be Revan's equal if not superior.
Well, Scourge's amp is permanent. He became immortal after Vitiate's ritual. So, you can't really separate that from him or even call it an amp.
Well, if HoT defeated full powered Vitiate, he'd be >>> Revan so even though Vitiate was weakened, its still impressive and that is not HoT's sole achievement.
When Scourge faced HoT, it was not Hot's peak version so I don't think he wins here for sure. I'd say he'd have the upper hand in round 2 though.
I was under the impression that he was actively being boosted by Vitiate.
I suppose this is a constant enough condition that trying to speculate on "baseline" Scourge would be quite meaningless.
No, but as you have pointed out, the HoT's a lot more powerful by the time he faces down Vitiate, who was weakened by an unspecified amount.
I just don't see him being on Revan's level. Why would Vitiate make his wrath powerful enough to potentially threaten himself, as Revan clearly was? He lost to, as you pointed out, a weaker HoT, and was feared by members of the Dark Council. ...ok?
Yeah, separating this from Scourge would be like separating Natemha ritual from Vitiate.
I've never said that. I don't think there is that much of a difference between Act 2 final and act 3 final. Its still a considerable amount of course. Vitiate was seriously weakened however. Considering that he was able to crush HoT and his jedi friends' defenses in an earlier confrontation without much trouble.
Revan wasnt a threat to Vitiate because of his power. It is only stated that Revan almost killed him which is the case only cause the Emperor did not take him seriously at first and underestimated him since the last time they've encountered, Vitiate was able handle him without a fight.
Hot vs Revan is debatable. Both would defeat Scourge however. Scourge may have lost to HoT on purpose in act 2 though. So we actually never saw what he is capable of in an all out fight.
As stated earlier, he can boost himself from both of his opponents' rages and he is the most experienced combatant here which would come in handy in a fight like this.
Would it be? Vitiate's ritual permanently boosted his power; Vitiate could presumably withdraw his amp at his whim.
Neither option leaves you with the room to powerscale Scourge from HoT, and powerscale HoT from defeating Vitiate. Whether it's because the two incarnations of the Hero aren't of equal ability, or that the Vitiate HoT faced was significantly weakened, or a combination of both, it doesn't tell us much about Scourge.
I don't see how Vitiate underestimated Revan at all, seeing as how he immediately goes for his most powerful attack (the mind-****). Revan was only at his mercy because he made a dumb tactical mistake of giving Vitiate enough time to charge his powers (on a DS nexus, at that).
After being saved by Meetra, Revan and his quite pedestrian support stood, by Scourge's premonitions, a good chance of defeating the Emperor. That cannot be said of the Hero's gang, or anyone in TOR, for that matter. Revan is on a completely different level, and a SF empowered Malak gave him a serious fight. There's no indication that Scourge could do this.
Even with backup, HoT was trashed by the Emperor. It's possible that by the end of the third act there would be a reasonable debate, but then by that point there's no indication Scourge would still stand a chance anyway.
I understand that position and admit that it is extremely difficult to powerscale combatants from different eras. My current position is that Malak's performance against Revan is a more impressive feat than anything we've seen from Maul or Malak.
Scourge was amped by a similar ritual. Cutting that amp off from him would probably mean killing him tbh.
Unfortunately, that is the case yeah.
Ah, I had to explain this scene so many times. First of all, mindrape is not Vitiate's most powerful attack. The TP domination requires a power gap between opponents and it is very hard to achieve overall. Based on what we've seen from him, FLS/FL are his most powerful attacks. Last time they've encountered, Revan was no danger to him. When they met again, Vitiate assumed that would be the case and went for the TP attack. Trying to mind-**** someone is one of the most obvious ways of underestimating an opponent. Vitiate did a half ass job in the first half of the fight. At first, he didnt even get his defenses up and was caught off guard. And then, Revan managed to reflect a lightning bolt back at him. After that point, Vitiate realized he will have to take it seriously to finish him and the moment he started taking the fight seriously, it was over for Revan:
"The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him."
Revan, as a master of force lightning, used all his power to charge up his defenses against that attack yet Vitiate broke him almost instantly. Revan isn't anywhere near Vitiate in overall power.
If Meetra and Scourge were also there to attack the Empepor together, he would have summoned an FLS right away and if Revan couldn't defend against it, Meetra and Scourge would get fried easily. That is what happened to HoT's strike team.
Exactly. I'm open minded about this fight and willing to change my mind but I do believe that Scourge has a good chance at taking round 2.
How, exactly? He couldn't get close enough to threaten Vitiate with his blade and none of his Force powers could cause any damage to him. His TK was ineffective, his lightning wouldn't be powerful enough, he couldn't reflect anything strong enough to harm Vitiate and his Force in Balance attack merely knocked over a distracted Vitiate. To me it seemed Revan was almost literally incapable of hurting him.
Well he was continuously growing more powerful and was draining the Hand and Revan for centuries. So I wouldn't say it was insubstantial.
Oct 14th, 2014 09:13 PM
