Beating Dooku with a stylistic advantage is better than losing to Dooku with Anakin fcking Skywalker as your backup with a stylistic disadvantage.
If this is canon, there really is no argument to be made for Kenobi here.
If it's legends, you could argue that Kenobi grew after his fight vs Dooku, However we have no way toguage how much he grew, so an argument for Vos remains more solid. Additionally, given that Vosbeat Dooku despite Dooku ragdolling him twice, I doubt Kenobi's going tobe able to beat Vos with force power.
You have no way of proving that Vos couldn't have replicated Kenobi's performance under the same circumstances. In fact, given Vos has beat a dude who Kenobi lost to, Vos is likely to perform better.
And yes, Vos had a style edge, Kenobi had the fcking chosen one as backup.
Also in ROTS Dooku has to use the force to break through Obi-Wan's defenses. I'm not sure Vos is powerful enough to do the same, and I don't see him breaking through Obi Wan's soresu either.
It's stated by Gillard that their intimate knowledge of each other made them perfectly matched. So, nah, Kenobi's performance was circumstantial.
Frankly, guessing which performance is better is just speculation, as we aren't going to to be able to quantify the affect of the extra advantage or disadvantage. Fortunately, we don't need this conjecture as both Vos and Kenobi have fought against the same opponent, Dooku.
A good thing I acknowledged the circumstances then.
If Kenobi can't attack Dooku without being thrown off balance, then he's inferior. There's also Dooku twisting Kenobi around and drawing his blade to Anakin's, and dealing with both Kenobi and Anakiin's attacks simultaneously.
Nah, because Dooku also clowns Anakin there, someone who wields a form advantage against him. Dooku clowns Kenobi there coz he's much better as of TCW.
You're acting as if Dooku's method of beating Kenobi is the only way one can do so. If someone is sufficiently skilled, they can beat their opponent regardless of style matchups. Vos beat Dooku, Kenobi was shown as inferior to Dooku despite having Anakin as backup. I'm not buying Vos having a stylistic edge being sufficient to make up for Kenobi's significantly worse performance.
Or, Vos's unpredictable offense overwhelms Kenobi's defenses. This is pure conjecture right here. We go with who performs better, not who may or may not have some hypothetical matchup edge.
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It was Dooku who "barely overextended" not Vos who somehow out-skilled him.
And seeing that Dooku had to use the force or acrobatics rather than saber skill to over-power Kenobi in every post AotC fight, I don't know why there's any case to be made for Vos.
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Vos forcing Dooku to overextend is a showing of skill. That a stylistic edge granted him victory doesn't change he was skilled enough to fight evenly with someone who has only ever showcased superiority to Kenobi, even when Kenobi had backup.
Dooku didn't need either to make Kenobi look like a clown: https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m25s
The fact Obi-Wan and Anakin have styles that perfectly match each other does not preclude the factors of strength, speed, sense, etc.
Obi-Wan is good enough in those fields to actually be a match to Anakin when style is factored in - that's a big deal you're overlooking.
The idea of Obi-Wan being unable to attack Dooku being inferior is unfair to say the least. Obi-Wan becomes vulnerable in moments of aggression, which Dooku always manages to exploit. That's simply a stylistic advantage of Dooku's style, which revolves around such precision. We can conclude this since Anakin is unable to exploit such flaws, showing that Dooku's style is more suited toward picking apart Obi-Wan than aggressive forms than Anakin (or Grievous and Maul). If it was a matter of skill, than Anakin should be capable of likewise dominating Obi-Wan when he launches attacks.
Most importantly, you have this idea that Vos beat Dooku out of skill. If you read the novel, you'd discover that is the one idea explicitly not conveyed in the fight. The author directly compares Dooku's mastery of lightsaber combat (skill) as directly opposite to Quinlan Vos' pure unpredictability that, as per the narrator, bewilders even himself, thus establishing what Vos is doing is not skill-based.
Let's look at how the Episode II script, which is still being used in Canon, describes Dooku:
DOOKU is the complete swordsman - elegant, graceful, classical - a master of the old style.
Notice those three adjectives used to describe Dooku would be the exact opposite of Quinlan. The most blatant conclusion to take from their fight is that Dooku is stylistic to a fault. His entire swordfighting career has been one of principles, standards, and rules of engagement, far more so than perhaps anyone else in an era renowned for such (as elaborated by Nick Gillard in, I believe, an Episode I documentary). Quinlan is the opposite. There is no grace to his fighting style. Hell, there is no style to his fighting - he's devoid of any style, which makes him impossibly unpredictable for someone like Dooku to combat effectively. That being said, there's little indication this applies to other fighters such as, say, Obi-Wan. Again, Quinlan's style was perfect for Dooku, but Obi-Wan has more experience fighting unpredictable opponents than anyone. Granted, I doubt anyone in the mythos is as unpredictable as Quinlan besides perhaps Sidious, but considering we know Obi-Wan can contend with Quinlan on most avenues of combat (strength, speed, sense, etc.), it seems clear to me that all that remains is simply stylistic differences, in which a stone-wall should be beating an unpredictable flurry.
For the record, don't respond to me again by points. I'm not going to bother to respond to that individually.
This isn't even necessarily directed toward you despite what the top says. This is just outlining my rational to everyone.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
I mean, my text didn't remotely convey that idea, but sure, Dooku isn't downing Maul quickly. They're both officially in the same heavy-weight class of fighting, after all.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
@ant I might respond tomorrow, I'm going to need to relook at sh!t regarding Anakin vs Kenobi though.
Kenobi being able to match Anakin in augmentation is...sus.
As for Vos, I've never tried to argue Vos was legitmately>Dooku. As I noted, his style edge granted him victory. But I'm not going to go with a stylistic edge making up for the difference between being able to beat someone and then being outdueled despite having backup.
I'm also not seeing why we should assume Kenobi's stone wall can hold up indefinitely against the stonewall of someone who's unpredictable offense is as impressive as Vos's. Even assuming that Anakin was still a tier 9 on Mustafar, Kenobi would naturally have no problem predicting Anakin's moves given he trained him.
Sep 16th, 2017 12:47 AM
