Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
You may.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
What is this? Darth Vader have official promotion as invincible. Have a look:
Clad in flowing black robes, protective armor, and a grotesque, combined breath mask and helmet, the imposing figure of Darth Vader was feared throughout the Empire. Utterly ruthless, his Sith powers made him virtually invincible.
From (The Official Star Wars Fact File: #3)
How can Exar Kun defeat invincible fighter? He can't. Member AncientPower have lost his/her/its mind.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Simply put, I don't believe there's much room for any retaliation by Vader in a Force contest. Let's take a look at Exar Kun's most impressive Force feats:
On Yavin IV, Exar Kun lifts the Corsair out of the depths of the Temple of Fire without leaving permanent damage to the building:
This is an immense feat of telekinesis so early on in his career. Accompanied by a telepathic feat of his undertaken shortly after:
The population of Cinnagar, the planet in question, is 310,000,000,000 according to Force and Destiny: Nexus of Power and is one of the busiest thoroughfares in all the galaxy. Feel free to make your own estimate.
Both of these feats are prior to massive growths in power for Kun:
Just for emphasis:
Exar Kun attained the Dark Holocron, making him even more powerful:
A feat that takes place far further along in his career, is actually him tanking an attack with his lesser Force barrier when taken off-guard:
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So Odan-Urr channels the power of Ossus into an attack on Exar Kun. With this same power source, he shields himself from ten supernova waves and survives:
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This is stated to be more devastating than anything the galaxy has ever seen:
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Yet Exar Kun. . . is barely damaged.
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By the time he's in his prime before the entire Jedi order attacked Yavin IV, he's confirmed to be 'far more powerful' than any one other Jedi of his time:
This therefore includes the legendary Master Thon, who was powerful enough to cleanse the most powerful concentration of dark side energy ever attempted:
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This would include more dark side energy than was used by Naga Sadow and his Sith Meditation Sphere to cause a supernova and also arguably the Nathema Ritual conducted by Vitiate and his 8,000 Sith Lords.
I thought I'd bring out the bigger feats first and ignore scaling, that makes for a better debate and not a war of interpretation.
Your turn.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Is this Legends and Canon?
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
I'd prefer Legends only, because honestly the two Vader incarnations conflict pretty damn hard; especially 19BBY to ANH. But if you insist, I'll give you that.
__________________
Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
That's fine, I shall go legends.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Does that mean I can't include the movies/novels?
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Okay, give me time to reply.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites
Also you can scale Vader beyond Knightfall Anakin, RotS Sidious and Yoda for the lulz, and then watch in amusement as AP makes a mockery of him/her/itself trying to argue Kun could beat any of those guys.
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Okay firstly, great opening post. Exar Kun is definitely quite impressive. Though contrary to your argument, I do believe that Vader can outmatch Kun in all aspects of a fight, most notably force feats and lightsaber feats. As you’ve begun with force feats, that’s where I too shall start.
Vader is on a comparable level of power to Exar Kun. He is described as one of the most powerful Sith of all time, alongside Exar Kun himself:
Darth Vader and Exar Kun at least both classed as part of the most powerful cadre of Sith, which includes Sidious, who is canonically the most powerful Sith who had ever lived. Though granted this excludes aliens such as Plagueis, but the point is clear.
Vader’s status as one of the most powerful Sith in history is reinforced further here:
It’s therefore apparent that Vader and Kun are both labelled as some of the both powerful Sith Lords in history. It is now up to me to prove that Vader > Kun.
I will begin by responding to your TK example for Exar Kun:
This information is quite ambiguous to begin with. It does not detail how much Exar Kun exerted himself as he did this, nor does it explain whether there was any prep, or how long it took. This may seem like a cheap shot point, but I’m just pointing out that we don’t know all the details. The context of the quote is therefore up to serious differences in interpretation, similar to how Nihilus’ similar feat is.
Vader’s most impressive TK feat is not on the level of lifting a military vessel into orbit, granted. However, we may take his feat and combine it with his stated power levels, which will be detailed below.
Credit to Zapan871: “Years before his prime, Vader successfully Force grips TFU 2 Starkiller, who was capable of disintegrating half of a 300 meter long ship. The game guide also corroborates this by stating that Vader was too powerful for Starkiller. This is easily one of, if not Vader's most impressive feat.”
The aforementioned quote is:
Note that Vader is also stated by Lucas to be 80% the power of the emperor:
Being 80% the power of Sidious is extremely powerful, and this is presumably talking about Vader fresh into his suit. He had decades before his prime, where multiple sources beyond count to put into this argument detail his extraordinary learning curve as he approaches ROTJ.
Vader is stated to be a master of the dark side, here are some quotes:
Although Vader has not in fact, to my knowledge, demonstrated on a true scale what he’s capable of, he scales massively. He begins in his suit as 80% of ROTS Sidious, decades before his prime. In between then has had access to numerous holocrons and information on the light and dark sides of the force:
Vader’s access and learning from both Sidious and Sith holocrons would allow him insane access and understanding of the dark side. Exar Kun, to my knowledge cannot match this level of knowledge of various techniques and powers. Exar Kun’s raw knowledge appears to pale in comparison to Vader’s mastery and deeper understanding of multiple facets of the dark side relative to Kun.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis
Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple
Another major point that you bring up is Exar Kun tanking supernova blasts. I will have to ask other members to validate the context for me, since I cannot read the small images. Regardless, Vader’s physical feats are not to be underestimated. Credit to Zapan871: “He survives being buried alive for days stating that the dark side gave him all he needed, impressing Darth Sidious, and this happened after collapsing a cathedral, tanking an explosion when he had just willed himself back to life, and being torched by two flamethrowers.” Vader also survives a blast from close quarters from Galen Marek, who achieved oneness, whilst also gravely injured.
Exar Kun has been credited with the feat force lightning [despite never been shown using it]. This does not really affect Vader, who has on multiple occasions tanked his apprentices’ lighting. Only that of the emperor can sufficiently damage Vader to a significant degree. Again, credit to Zapan871 for this brilliant explanation:
Thus it’s quite clear that the wielder of the force lightning would need to be comparable to emperor Palpatine as of ROTJ to actually pose a serious threat to Vader. Kun does not the have force power to penetrate Vader’s defenses, somebody who is above ROTS Sidious, and therefore Yoda and Mace WIndu, in power of the force by a significant margin. Kun to my knowledge has not shown that he can penetrate the defenses of even someone of Yoda’s caliber, let alone a Sith Lord even stronger.
To be honest, Exar Kun has not demonstrated that he has the force ability to defeat Vader. His TK feats are irrelevant considering Vader’s immense power scaling, being stronger in the force than ROTS Sidious and therefore Yoda as well [actualized power]. Kun has never [correct me if I’m wrong] penetrated the defenses of somebody even close to Yoda’s level, let alone Prime Vader, who is 80% of the emperor two decades before his prime, and before he properly tapped into the dark side.
It’s also revealed that even in ROTJ, although Luke matched Vader in sabers, the latter could still easily kill his son with the force if he actually tried.
Vader also matches Exar Kun’s physical strength, or perhaps even trumps it, as he is stated to literally will himself back to life after death. An incredible feat, and something that he could perhaps have pulled during ROTJ if he was still in allegiance to the dark side. Again, for note, Vader could easily still have killed Luke with the force.
As demonstrated above, I do not believe that Kun’s lightning could actually seriously harm Vader, as even Galen Marek and Starkiller did not seem to really affect Vader with their own lightning. I may provide sources and context for this as you wish.
Exar Kun is clearly < ROTS Sidious, and Vader is beyond that. There is no real way Kun is stronger in the force. Note that most of the best force users during Vader’s time such as Sidious, Plagueis and Yoda are considered some of the best in all time. Sidious/Plagueis are the culmination of the Banite Line, Yoda is considered the greatest Jedi in the history of the order etc. Although Kun is far more powerful than the Jedi of his time, the Jedi of Vader’s early days were the culmination of the Jedi order, and therefore its best. Numerous sources including Lucas himself notes the time of the PT to be the prime of the Jedi. Luke Skywalker confirms this in TLJ. Kun cannot sufficiently scale in order to even touch Vader imo.
As for Lightsabers, I don't see anything that gives Exar Kun any significant advantage over Vader.
__________________ The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis