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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Star Wars Versus Forum » Exar Kun(AncientPower) vs. Darth Vader(Samappo)


Exar Kun(AncientPower) vs. Darth Vader(Samappo)
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Exar Kun(AncientPower) vs. Darth Vader(Samappo)

quote:

Combatants:
(please log in to view the image)

VERSUS

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Rules:
- All-out.
- Neutral ground.
- No amplifications.
- Standard gear.


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Last edited by AncientPower on Dec 30th, 2017 at 12:29 PM

Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 12:23 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

I'll do the opener, if you like?


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 12:25 PM
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Not_a_sock
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AncientPower has dedicated himself solely to Kun apologetics.

I hope you know some stuff about Vader Samappo...


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 12:27 PM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
I'll do the opener, if you like?


You may.


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The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 12:41 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Alright, give me 24 hours.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 12:43 PM
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S_W_LeGenDofPT
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What is this? Darth Vader have official promotion as invincible. Have a look:

Clad in flowing black robes, protective armor, and a grotesque, combined breath mask and helmet, the imposing figure of Darth Vader was feared throughout the Empire. Utterly ruthless, his Sith powers made him virtually invincible.

From (The Official Star Wars Fact File: #3)

How can Exar Kun defeat invincible fighter? He can't. Member AncientPower have lost his/her/its mind.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 02:21 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Simply put, I don't believe there's much room for any retaliation by Vader in a Force contest. Let's take a look at Exar Kun's most impressive Force feats:

On Yavin IV, Exar Kun lifts the Corsair out of the depths of the Temple of Fire without leaving permanent damage to the building:

quote:
"Though all of the Derriphan-class battleships were thought to be destroyed in the Great Hyperspace War, at least one survived. The ship, belonging to Naga Sadow, was buried on Yavin 4. During the Great Sith War, Exar Kun would raise the ship from the planet and put it back to service, similar to the way Darth Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V."

-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


This is an immense feat of telekinesis so early on in his career. Accompanied by a telepathic feat of his undertaken shortly after:

quote:
"Help!"

"No one will help you, no one even knows."

"But your ship! Energy blasts! Scanners!"

"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"

"Who.. are you?"

"I? Soon, I shall be the man who conquered this planet, the man who rules the galaxy. But for this moment, I am the man who murdered you."

- Docking bay staff and Exar Kun, Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith Audio Drama CD #2


The population of Cinnagar, the planet in question, is 310,000,000,000 according to Force and Destiny: Nexus of Power and is one of the busiest thoroughfares in all the galaxy. Feel free to make your own estimate.

Both of these feats are prior to massive growths in power for Kun:

quote:
(please log in to view the image)
Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma disappeared for several years, gaining tremendous powers of the dark side.


Just for emphasis:
quote:
tre·men·dous
adjective
very great in amount, scale, or intensity.
"Penny put in a tremendous amount of time"
synonyms: huge, enormous, immense, colossal, massive, prodigious, stupendous, monumental, mammoth, vast, gigantic, giant, mighty, epic, titanic, towering, king-size(d), jumbo, gargantuan, Herculean;


Exar Kun attained the Dark Holocron, making him even more powerful:

quote:
Odan-Urr goes to the Force and the darkest power in the galaxy walks away with something that will make him even stronger.

- Tales of the Jedi


A feat that takes place far further along in his career, is actually him tanking an attack with his lesser Force barrier when taken off-guard:

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)

So Odan-Urr channels the power of Ossus into an attack on Exar Kun. With this same power source, he shields himself from ten supernova waves and survives:

(please log in to view the image)

This is stated to be more devastating than anything the galaxy has ever seen:

(please log in to view the image)

Yet Exar Kun. . . is barely damaged.

(please log in to view the image)

By the time he's in his prime before the entire Jedi order attacked Yavin IV, he's confirmed to be 'far more powerful' than any one other Jedi of his time:

quote:
She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.

- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook


This therefore includes the legendary Master Thon, who was powerful enough to cleanse the most powerful concentration of dark side energy ever attempted:

(please log in to view the image)

This would include more dark side energy than was used by Naga Sadow and his Sith Meditation Sphere to cause a supernova and also arguably the Nathema Ritual conducted by Vitiate and his 8,000 Sith Lords.

I thought I'd bring out the bigger feats first and ignore scaling, that makes for a better debate and not a war of interpretation.

Your turn. thumb up


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 04:53 PM
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Not_a_sock
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No point responding Appo since Vader's best feat is getting force pushed by Kanan and Ezra.


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Old Post Dec 30th, 2017 04:56 PM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

Is this Legends and Canon?


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The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 12:06 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

I'd prefer Legends only, because honestly the two Vader incarnations conflict pretty damn hard; especially 19BBY to ANH. But if you insist, I'll give you that.


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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 12:22 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

That's fine, I shall go legends.


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 12:44 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

Does that mean I can't include the movies/novels?


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 12:45 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Novels of movies are fine.


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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 12:58 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

Okay, give me time to reply.


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The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 01:07 AM
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The Ellimist
The Shadow

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

samappo, remember:

- scaling from The Force Unleashed feats
- Vader doesn't reach his suited prime until RotJ
- don't take ambiguious Exar Kun feats for granted


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Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 01:31 AM
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Azronger
Azronger Reborn

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: The Throne of the Sheevites


 

Also you can scale Vader beyond Knightfall Anakin, RotS Sidious and Yoda for the lulz, and then watch in amusement as AP makes a mockery of him/her/itself trying to argue Kun could beat any of those guys.


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Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 01:47 AM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

1.Stop interrupting our debate, I have no interest in Samappo regurgitating your arguments.

2.Vader can't be scaled from them at all.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Last edited by AncientPower on Dec 31st, 2017 at 02:48 AM

Old Post Dec 31st, 2017 02:40 AM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

Okay firstly, great opening post. Exar Kun is definitely quite impressive. Though contrary to your argument, I do believe that Vader can outmatch Kun in all aspects of a fight, most notably force feats and lightsaber feats. As you’ve begun with force feats, that’s where I too shall start.

Vader is on a comparable level of power to Exar Kun. He is described as one of the most powerful Sith of all time, alongside Exar Kun himself:

quote:
Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt.

-- Behind The Threat: Sith


Darth Vader and Exar Kun at least both classed as part of the most powerful cadre of Sith, which includes Sidious, who is canonically the most powerful Sith who had ever lived. Though granted this excludes aliens such as Plagueis, but the point is clear.

Vader’s status as one of the most powerful Sith in history is reinforced further here:

quote:
From a slave on Tatooine to one of the most powerful Sith Lords ever, Anakin Skywalker's rise to power was as astonishing as it was tragic.

-- Star Wars: Force Collection


It’s therefore apparent that Vader and Kun are both labelled as some of the both powerful Sith Lords in history. It is now up to me to prove that Vader > Kun.
I will begin by responding to your TK example for Exar Kun:

quote:
"Though all of the Derriphan-class battleships were thought to be destroyed in the Great Hyperspace War, at least one survived. The ship, belonging to Naga Sadow, was buried on Yavin 4. During the Great Sith War, Exar Kun would raise the ship from the planet and put it back to service, similar to the way Darth Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V."

-- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


This information is quite ambiguous to begin with. It does not detail how much Exar Kun exerted himself as he did this, nor does it explain whether there was any prep, or how long it took. This may seem like a cheap shot point, but I’m just pointing out that we don’t know all the details. The context of the quote is therefore up to serious differences in interpretation, similar to how Nihilus’ similar feat is.

Vader’s most impressive TK feat is not on the level of lifting a military vessel into orbit, granted. However, we may take his feat and combine it with his stated power levels, which will be detailed below.

Credit to Zapan871: “Years before his prime, Vader successfully Force grips TFU 2 Starkiller, who was capable of disintegrating half of a 300 meter long ship. The game guide also corroborates this by stating that Vader was too powerful for Starkiller. This is easily one of, if not Vader's most impressive feat.”
The aforementioned quote is:

quote:
You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide


Note that Vader is also stated by Lucas to be 80% the power of the emperor:

quote:
“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

-- Star Wars: The Last Battle, Vanity Fair Magazine, 2005


Being 80% the power of Sidious is extremely powerful, and this is presumably talking about Vader fresh into his suit. He had decades before his prime, where multiple sources beyond count to put into this argument detail his extraordinary learning curve as he approaches ROTJ.
Vader is stated to be a master of the dark side, here are some quotes:
quote:
Vader, one of the last of the Jedi, has phenomenal control over the Force.

-- Galaxy Magazine 11


quote:
As his control over the dark side deepened, Vader grew increasingly contemptuous of his previous life as a mere student. The Dark Lord possessed immeasurable power, and unquestionable authority.

-- Anakin Skywalker: The Story Of Darth Vader.


quote:
Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide


quote:
Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.

-- Shadows Of The Empire: Prince Xizor vs. Darth Vader Action Figure (Kenner)


Although Vader has not in fact, to my knowledge, demonstrated on a true scale what he’s capable of, he scales massively. He begins in his suit as 80% of ROTS Sidious, decades before his prime. In between then has had access to numerous holocrons and information on the light and dark sides of the force:

quote:
Krimsan was a humanoid female with more than two hundred years of teaching experience at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. It remains unknown how the holocron that she maintained came into Darth Vader's possession. Although the Asli Krimsan Holocron was primarily conceived for the education of young Jedi, it also contains information on a wide range of events, including tales of the Jedi Knight of the old Republic and their battles against the Sith.

-- Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force


quote:
Black armorweave and feats of strength weren't the only things that distinguished Darth Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader–even light-years from Coruscant–could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters.

-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


quote:
"Beyond this door lies the Holocron Vault. The Holocrons contain the most closely guarded secrets of the Jedi Order."

-- The Clone Wars Season 2: Holocron Heist


quote:
For a thousand generations, the Jedi worked hard to ensure that peace flourished throughout the galaxy. During that time, a number of repositories of Jedi knowledge developed, whose scope and sheer magnitude have become legendary. Of these, the library on the planet Ossus is perhaps the most infamous. Tragically, it was obliterated when the stars of the nearby Cron cluster were exploded by the weapon of the ancient Sith High Priest, Naga Sadow. What vast knowledge and wisdom was lost in the ensuing conflagration is now a matter for myths and stories to imagine. In more recent times, the Archives at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant were similarly vast.

-- Star Wars Fact File 46


Vader’s access and learning from both Sidious and Sith holocrons would allow him insane access and understanding of the dark side. Exar Kun, to my knowledge cannot match this level of knowledge of various techniques and powers. Exar Kun’s raw knowledge appears to pale in comparison to Vader’s mastery and deeper understanding of multiple facets of the dark side relative to Kun.
quote:
Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion.

-- Star Wars Visual Dictionary


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 04:07 PM
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samappo
Senior Member

Registered: Mar 2017
Location: Sith shrine below the Jedi Temple


 

Another major point that you bring up is Exar Kun tanking supernova blasts. I will have to ask other members to validate the context for me, since I cannot read the small images. Regardless, Vader’s physical feats are not to be underestimated. Credit to Zapan871: “He survives being buried alive for days stating that the dark side gave him all he needed, impressing Darth Sidious, and this happened after collapsing a cathedral, tanking an explosion when he had just willed himself back to life, and being torched by two flamethrowers.” Vader also survives a blast from close quarters from Galen Marek, who achieved oneness, whilst also gravely injured.

Exar Kun has been credited with the feat force lightning [despite never been shown using it]. This does not really affect Vader, who has on multiple occasions tanked his apprentices’ lighting. Only that of the emperor can sufficiently damage Vader to a significant degree. Again, credit to Zapan871 for this brilliant explanation:

quote:
Ironically, this is used very often as evidence that Vader is unable to resist Lightning in general, but is actually an incredible durability feat for several reasons:

1.Palpatine's Lightning is unrivaled by that of any other Sith Lord (check this Palpatine's super respect thread if you don't believe me);
2. Vader was extremely weakened;
3. Mace Windu was unable to move when he was hit by the same Lightning, while Vader could, and resisted it for long enough to kill his master;
4. He renounced the dark side (and consequently, his anger), and we know he studied the journal of Darth Malgus to learn how a wounded warrior can be sustained by his rage, which is one the most important assets in Vader's arsenal, thus meaning his anger wasn't sustaining him any longer.
5. Finally, he wasn't killed by Lightning alone. He was also mortally wounded by Palpatine's Dark Side Burst.


Thus it’s quite clear that the wielder of the force lightning would need to be comparable to emperor Palpatine as of ROTJ to actually pose a serious threat to Vader. Kun does not the have force power to penetrate Vader’s defenses, somebody who is above ROTS Sidious, and therefore Yoda and Mace WIndu, in power of the force by a significant margin. Kun to my knowledge has not shown that he can penetrate the defenses of even someone of Yoda’s caliber, let alone a Sith Lord even stronger.

To be honest, Exar Kun has not demonstrated that he has the force ability to defeat Vader. His TK feats are irrelevant considering Vader’s immense power scaling, being stronger in the force than ROTS Sidious and therefore Yoda as well [actualized power]. Kun has never [correct me if I’m wrong] penetrated the defenses of somebody even close to Yoda’s level, let alone Prime Vader, who is 80% of the emperor two decades before his prime, and before he properly tapped into the dark side.

It’s also revealed that even in ROTJ, although Luke matched Vader in sabers, the latter could still easily kill his son with the force if he actually tried.

quote:
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.

--The Courtship of Princess Leia


Vader also matches Exar Kun’s physical strength, or perhaps even trumps it, as he is stated to literally will himself back to life after death. An incredible feat, and something that he could perhaps have pulled during ROTJ if he was still in allegiance to the dark side. Again, for note, Vader could easily still have killed Luke with the force.

As demonstrated above, I do not believe that Kun’s lightning could actually seriously harm Vader, as even Galen Marek and Starkiller did not seem to really affect Vader with their own lightning. I may provide sources and context for this as you wish.

Exar Kun is clearly < ROTS Sidious, and Vader is beyond that. There is no real way Kun is stronger in the force. Note that most of the best force users during Vader’s time such as Sidious, Plagueis and Yoda are considered some of the best in all time. Sidious/Plagueis are the culmination of the Banite Line, Yoda is considered the greatest Jedi in the history of the order etc. Although Kun is far more powerful than the Jedi of his time, the Jedi of Vader’s early days were the culmination of the Jedi order, and therefore its best. Numerous sources including Lucas himself notes the time of the PT to be the prime of the Jedi. Luke Skywalker confirms this in TLJ. Kun cannot sufficiently scale in order to even touch Vader imo.

As for Lightsabers, I don't see anything that gives Exar Kun any significant advantage over Vader.


__________________

The Sith are not placid stars but singularities. Rather than burn with muted purpose, we warp space and time to twist the galaxy to our own design. - Darth Plagueis

Old Post Jan 2nd, 2018 04:08 PM
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AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

Oh I didn't even notice that you'd replied. Sorry about that.


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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Jan 5th, 2018 12:31 PM
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