So does every user win in a fight because Vaapad reasons?
I mean, people actually argue that Windu's Vaapad couldn't break Palpatine. So why would Windu everytime win with Vaapad in a versus thread?
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Registered: Jul 2015
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B/c who da fuq is stronger than Palpatine?
Also I'm pretty sure Mace's Vaapad was effective at deflecting Sidious's power; the problem was it required intense concentration that was only doable in the circumstances of that fight (Mace's emotions about finding how Sheev orchestrated everything; Windu giving himself up to the force).
The way I think of it, Mace is the mirror deflecting Sidious's power; but Sidious's power is so strong that it was slowly burning a hole through Mace's mirror. I don't think Mace could have continued reflecting that magnitude of power indefinitely.
__________________ "Technology equals might!" "Evolve or perish"
The novelization makes it clear that blocking Palpatine's lightning had rendered Mace borderline exhausted:
Had Palpatine kept up that intensity of lightning(instead of putting on a little performance for Anakin), he likely would have overwhelmed Mace's defenses soon thereafter.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
Last edited by Galan007 on Apr 20th, 2018 at 02:21 PM
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
You are lying to yourself if you think Palpatine has no Sith rivals in the Expanded Universe(feat-wise)
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
It's not just Vapaad, Mace punched way above his normal weight against Palpatine because the stakes were so high. It was the fight of his life. Just like Ob-Wan did against Anakin on Mustafar, and later when protecting Luke from Maul.
They can't normally access that kind of power.
We see in Son of Dathomir that Talzin is comparable to Sidious in power(and vastly inferior in dueling skill), yet Windu's performance against Talzin was not very good. And his brief fight against Maul(while having Aalya Secura as back-up) is also nothing to write home about. In fact he was knocked on his ass by an RPG that Maul easily dodged.
His performance against Palpatine was once in a lifetime because of the context, and arguably wouldn't have even happened if the B-Team wasn't there as a meat shield, allowing Mace the time to get his shit together.
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
The ROTS novel, imo, makes it pretty clear that Windu did as well as he did against Sidious because of two factors:
1: Vapaad (being the biggest reason)
2: Basically being rage/fear amped, as he was fighting to save the very existence of the Republic, which he loved deeply, he knew that if he failed, there was no chance left for victory over the Sith.
The second point kinda falls in line with real world factors as well, when people are working to save something/someone that they love, adrenaline can kick in and allow for physical acts that are well beyond that person's everyday norm. So Windu was not only amped by Vapaad, but also undergoing what was essentially the Force user duel equivalent of an adrenaline rush.
Please support this claim.
So Yoda was amped vs Sidious? Was Sidious amped vs Yoda? Hell, by this logic, he should be amped vs Mace as well since losing would result in all his machinations being for naught.
Is there a reason you're inventing non existent circumstances and then applying them inconsistently?
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
1: Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.
Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."
For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.
He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.
And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.
Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.
He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.
They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—
That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—
All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—
Has all been for nothing.
Because it was all done to save the Republic.
Which was already gone.
Which had already fallen.
The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.
Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.
Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire,weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—
And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
--Taken from Revenge of the Sith
2: Why would Yoda be amped? Nothing suggests that he was, Yoda isn't credited with having a deep love of the Republic, and it doesn't matter either, the ROTS novel practically flat out says Yoda could never have won the fight anyway.
I'm not inventing anything, this is the conclusion I came to upon reading the provided quote. If coming to a conclusion based on provided evidence constitutes inventing circumstances, than everyone on this forum is, by default, lying out their asses about absolutely everything.
Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
I provided the quote. It singularly points out that Windu had a close, personal attachment to the Republic. I'm not saying that Yoda doesn't have an attachment to the Jedi Order, but the fact that the author chose to directly mention Windu's attachment to the Republic implies to me that Windu's love of the Republic is greater than Yoda's feelings for the Jedi Order, and the the threat of the Reublic's fall, the threat of this thing he loved, seemed to be fueling to Windu's strength, maybe it was just contributing to Vapaad, I don't know, that's just what I gathered from reading the quote.
I don't even think Vaapad is as big of an amp as people portray it. Mace is an 8 bordering 9 according to Lucas/Gillard, and the ROTS novel was line edited by Lucas himself who had that thinking process at the time. People just really want to peg Windu really low for some reason.
__________________ "Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery -- of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission -- all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more."
__________________ RealistRacism: "Sheevites, much like the Banites, were meant to increase in power with each member. From Lightsnake to Gideon to Azronger, this was supposed to be the case. However, knowledge must've been lost in some kind of Gravid-like incident, as Az turned out to be a mid-tier debater with a sub-par track record, sh!itting all over Tempest's legacy. Sad."
Apr 20th, 2018 01:32 PM
