Round 1: Luke most of the time.
Round 2: Argument can be made either way I think, comes down to who has the better non-storm Force feats.
Round 3: Luke has no answer for Sidious' full, unbridled power, so Sheev wins every time.
Round 1: Luke with some minor BM beats Sidious in a duel pretty handily. Then: LotF Invincible Luke (based on the power he *shows*) >> Revelations >> Inferno >>> DN > TUF >>> Vector Prime >>>>>>>> that Luke from various lines of scaling.
Round 2: Leia in the audiobook notes that she "feels" the wave of light winning against the wave of dark in their duel yet she can hardly see them, so it seems like Luke was overpowering Sidious. Now Sidious still had the edge in external abilities but by FotJ Luke has definitely closed the gap. Plus he has way more potential than Palpatine and way more than enough time and training to have actualized that disparity.
Round 3: not sure.
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Sidious believed Luke had far more potential than him in the context of Luke being turned to the dark side and trained by Sidious. In that sense, Anakin Solo's fetus had more potential than Sidious, in that if Sidious grew up inside the body an adult Anakin Solo, he would have a physical vessel better capable of handling his power.
So sure, Luke in Sidious' estimation could have become an even more powerful dark side abomination than Sidious, but is there any evidence that he actually did reach such heights of power? Even if we discount Force Storms for the time being.
I'm pretty sure the dark side isn't literally more powerful at the end-state for a given potential, it's just a faster way to get there and gives you specific abilities that the light side wouldn't touch. At least that's what Yoda says in ESB, and I think it's a general theme of Star Wars. I don't have solid proof of this though.
Anyway, Sidious also said to Vader that Luke "could destroy us", and it seems from the context that Luke was a threat to surpass Sidious as a light-sider too.
His power growth implies that. We already know his ridiculous ESB -> RotJ growth, and you could say "well then he just leveled off", but Sidious didn't seem to think so when he met him in DE, sourcebooks emphasize the opposite, and Jaina and Jacen seem to drastically underestimate his power in LotF even after seeing him in TUF, where they were also in "awe" despite having fought with him all throughout NJO, which comes quite a bit after JA in which his powers had doubled from DE and he was spending most of his time studying the Force.
And it's not like he doesn't have the feats to pass the "eye test", like no-selling UnuThul's TK in DN, solo'ing thousands of Vong + a dozen slayers, ragdolling someone more powerful than Darth Vader, telekinetically crushing Vader's fortress, etc. In categories where the Luke would actually bother to compete (not like, mind controlling planets), there isn't a clear advantage in Sidious's favor.
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Luke could have destroyed them in the same way Vader could have destroyed Sidious, i.e throwing him down a reactor shaft. But that's not really indicative of much other than they could cause Sidious' death.
Implying is not the same thing as proving.
Like I say, Luke could become what Sidious became, i.e an entity-like abomination of power, but that requires more proof than mere inference. When Sidious has destructive feats in excess of anything even Abeloth has shown, it throws a wrench in your assumptions.
I'm not basing my arguments on Sidious on an "eye-test" though. I'm basing it on evidence. None of these feats besides some pertaining to more earthly matters like dueling are in excess of what Sidious has shown, something you have agreed with in the past.
"Emperor Palpatine: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.
Darth Vader: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.
Emperor Palpatine: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
Seems more like "wow he's really powerful" not "maybe he'll give me cholera". Looking at this:
"Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadn’t seen before in the Emperor. Fear.
Luke saw fear in the Emperor -- fear of Luke. Fear of Luke’s power, fear that this power could be turned on him -- on the Emperor -- in the same way Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor -- and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperor’s nakedest self."
This strikes me more of "what if Luke overthrows me as a Jedi", not "what if Luke turns to the dark side and becomes stronger than me" given that the latter is what he gleefully wanted. Sure, you could say he was excited and afraid at the same time, but that seems like the less reasonable interpretation of the quote. Why would Luke feel like he was in a better psychological position because Sidious was fearing dark side Luke?
Well if we're going to use thematic barometers like "entity-like abomination", then we can use the fact that Luke is the son of Anakin Skywalker. Appealing to holistics hurts Sidious here.
It's pretty clear that Luke failing to surpass Sidious would be a pretty major negation of one of the main points of his entire storyline (that he is like a "what if" for if Anakin had stayed with the light).
If you're just using that to describe Sidious's feats, read on.
Scaling + explicitly stated potential is a fair enough argument that you do have to address it rather than just dismissing it as "inference". Basically everything in this subject is a matter of making inferences from the evidence. Indeed, your own case relies on making the inference that Sidious's feats are beyond Luke even though you have no direct comparison because Luke would never try to create a force storm or drain Byss or whatever. In this case though, you would have a point if you can demonstrate that either:
1. Sidious broke free of the limits of his potential, or
2. Luke underperformed and never lived up to the hype.
I was pointing out that point 2 goes against all the evidence we've seen.
Well comparing Sidious directly to Luke in destructive feats is dumb for obvious reasons. Comparing Sidious to Abeloth might make more sense, except that force storms are a specific technique that Sidious put deliberate effort into mastering, so it doesn't really stack well against Abeloth's abilities - and we never really see her fighting in the context to use them anyway. You could make the case that Abeloth has far better destructive feats than Sidious's raw lightning/TK, like melting a city by getting angry and destroying sinkhole station. Besides, we weren't including force storms in this specific tangent anyway.
Abeloth mainly gives Luke trouble by physically dominating him and having insane durability, and given that Sidious couldn't physically dominate Luke and doesn't have the ability to casually switch bodies and come back like Abeloth, that doesn't really matter for this comparison.
Yes, but they're close enough that Luke's powerscaling wins out. Given that Luke's potential and his actualization of it is one of the most consistently established points in Star Wars, possibly even moreso than Sidious's "most powerful" quotes, I'm inclined to need lots of countervailing reason to not believe it.
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Luke "could destroy" Sidious and Vader... but not necessarily in a fair fight or the sense you are implying. A strong Jedi is always a threat to the designs of the Sith. What does this quote actually prove?
Look at the quote more closely:
"fear that this power could be turned on him -- on the Emperor -- in the same way Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi."
Again, is Luke a threat to Sidious? Sure. Is this conclusive proof Luke surpassed Sidious' power level? No.
I was not appealing to a description, I used a description... if I were to appeal to holistics rather than stated evidence, which I am not, I might appeal to how Anakin was miraculously conceived in seeming opposition to Sidious, Anakin whose potential power rivals The Father.
But again, I stress that you remember my argument do not rely on such inferences and appeals.
Abeloth presumably put time into mastering her own destructive abilities, and as you have rightly pointed out in the past, Force Storms are an ability any Sith would logically covet, like Vitiate or Darth Krayt. Abeloth, too, would logically covet Force Storms.
So the refutation that it's just some special ability only Sidious knows falls short of refuting the fact it's more powerful than anything Abeloth has shown. If Sidious throws an 18km Force Storm at Abeloth, I see no evidence she has an answer for that.
I don't understand. Sidious' Force Storms are his power like Abeloth melting a city is her power. Why would we compare Sidious' lesser powers to Abeloth's best ones, ignore the Storms, and say Abeloth is better than Sidious?
Abeloth is pertinent to mention because Sheev's power is in excess of her showings, and Abeloth is in clear excess of Luke. Luke has a better shot at Sidious if he doesn't use his Storms, a far better shot, but that alone doesn't seal the deal.
So if you want to do a feat vs feat discussion on Sidious sans Storms vs Luke, we can do that, but let's just bear in mind that that discussion requires us to remove from Sidious' arsenal his most potent weapon while leaving Luke and Abeloth with theirs.
Last edited by BestDebaterEver on Oct 26th, 2018 at 03:27 PM
Taken in combination with multiple explicit IU and OOU sources that say Luke has more potential, combined with various manners for looking at his power growth throughout the chronology, we have a case (just like you have a case) for a claim and you're welcome to respond to it. Just saying it's "inference" is a cop-out - some inferences are very good. I'm not trying to convict you in the court of law.
From evidence -> claim, I'm saying:
Stated potential + demonstrated power growth -> surpassed Sidious
You're saying:
Stated feats -> beyond Luke
We both have inferences layered on-top of evidence. You're acting as if the potential and power growth are fanon and not direct statements.
Where would Abeloth be in a position to use force storms during FotJ? She was subconsciously causing enormous environmental damage perhaps comparable to the first force storm Sidious uses to lure Luke in, but every time she's either in close quarters fighting Luke and co. or splitting herself across multiple domains at once. You could say "well she could just teleport away and force storm the area", but 1) you could ask that of Sidious too, and 2) IIRC she wanted Luke alive.
Anyway, we could easily do a direct comparison in other domains where Sidious clearly falls short. Example: essence transfer. Sidious has to struggle around to find hosts and clones, while Abeloth quite casually possesses several force users and tanks lightsaber blows, blaster bolts, etc. even when in inhabited bodies that shouldn't be able to tank them, presumably because she is willing her bodies to work even when they're like not even force sensitive. Indeed, Sidious seems to need a certain set of bodies to use his powers in, but Abeloth can manifest at least an incredible amount of power while possessing non-force sensitives without any sign of decay.
No, Abeloth didn't use a specific technique, it seems like she just got angry and screamed and the city melted as a side effect.
Anyway, we weren't even discussing force storms.
I also detailed how Abeloth's fights with Luke involve her abusing her insane close quarters strength and durability, areas where Sidious most notably does not have an advantage, as you have Luke winning in sabers.
What does pointing out that Luke doesn't do force storms do for your case regarding their general power levels?
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I don't think I'm making an inference when I'm saying Sidious' Force Storms are a more destructive demonstration of power than anything Abeloth or Luke have shown. That's a factual observation.
Your arguments for Luke are inferences, ones I find plenty of reason to disagree with.
"Where would Abeloth be in a position to use force storms during FotJ?"
I'm sorry, but that's not a refutation to what I said. I asked for proof Abeloth has caused more destruction than Sidious with her Force Powers. Presumably Abeloth wants to be as powerful as possible, she bathed in the Font and Pool and draws on other external power sources, so let's not make excuses for her.
You can argue Abeloth is better than Sidious in a number of areas for one reason or another, sure, just like Sidious is better at wielding the destructive energies of the dark side.
Sure, Sidious' physical body isn't his most formidable weapon.
Nothing? Like I said, you can do feat vs feat sans Storms.
And it's a factual observation that Luke has more potential than Sidious. You could say that it's an inference to then conclude that he is more powerful, but it's also an inference to conclude that Sidious is therefore more powerful because he can do force storms. Both are lines of argumentation that involve making certain leaps from evidence.
What disagreements do you have?
I wasn't denying that Abeloth hasn't done storms, I was attacking the conclusion you were drawing from it.
And those other areas are valid ways to gauge how strong one is in the Force, unless if you think spirit Vitiate >>> Krayt? Noting that Abeloth can manifest powers through non-force sensitive hosts without any problems and can also more casually possess force users than anyone else has shown is a valid indication of her ability to wield the Force, as is her ability to somehow hold her host bodies together even with lightsaber holes in them and fight in multiple bodies across the entire galaxy simultaneously. Likewise, that Sidious has a better direct feat in destruction but Abeloth has better feats elsewhere doesn't mean Sidious is better at destruction any more than Darth Bandon is better at precog than Abeloth because IIRC we don't see Abeloth's precog clearly. We can draw the conclusion that Abeloth is likely better at precog due to the general correlation between Force abilities.
Indeed, while it's possible to imagine that Abeloth never did force storms because she didn't have a context to, Sidious most certainly tried to do as good of an essence transfer as he could, and to amp his physical stats, and failed to reach Abeloth's levels. It's an even more direct comparison.
Yes, let's do that. But it doesn't have to be the only type of evidence - it's just the only one in which Sidious has a chance.
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Last edited by The Ellimist on Oct 26th, 2018 at 04:01 PM
I'm making a leap to say that demonstrating more power = having more demonstrable power?
I outlined my disagreements with your two quotes above and you didn't respond to them.
Okay, but if you're just going to say feats don't matter then I don't see how you have a case either.
You have argued she has better showings in areas like essence transferring, melee combat, physical fortitude, etc, that's fine. She is better in those ways. Sidious is demonstrably better at causing destruction with the Dark Side. I don't see how the things you brought up save Abeloth from an 18km Force Storm.
BTW, what are the specific quotes demonstrating Abeloth's Essence Transfer abilities?
It's nothing more than an assumption she can do Force Storms but chooses not to. Again, Abeloth can be better in some ways for whatever reasons, while Sidious is better in the ways that count in a fight.
My stance on the second round is as follows:
"Round 2: Argument can be made either way I think, comes down to who has the better non-storm Force feats."
Last edited by BestDebaterEver on Oct 26th, 2018 at 04:13 PM
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(please log in to view the image) Dark Empire Sourcebook
The Emperor blatantly doesn't think Luke can surpass him as of Dark Empire. Whatever he may have thought about the topic as of Return of the Jedi is of no consequence because he hadn't yet transcended the limits of the flesh. It's in Dark Empire when his tranformation into an eldritch cosmic horror is complete and he is no longer bound by his corporeal Force potential imposed on him by midi-chlorians.
I don't doubt that Luke could defeat Sidious in his clone bodies that are confine his power to just his midi-chlorians, but he has no chance against the dark entity that can consume the universe.
Theoretically lots of people can surpass lots of people, but inference alone is not enough to prove that someone has been surpassed. Sidious has clearly transcended his physical form. There is no rule saying Sidious cannot become omnipotent eventually. Or Luke. What is important is that you can prove someone has been surpassed, not just infer it.
Oct 26th, 2018 02:05 PM
