Intr3pId (Agen Kolar) vs. Meatpants (Qui-Gon Jinn)
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As Qui-Gon has left the Jedi Order due to both political and philosophical disagreements, Agen has been tasked to bring him back. They encounter each other on Geonosis, ready to engage in battle.
Working on the post. It shouldn't take too long, since Agen is an easy character to gather sources for and make points regarding. Can prolly post tomorrow.
Shortish first post. I'm not big on feat-dumping or starting off with a huge scaling-chain, so I'll keep it simple.
Agen wins by virtue of better skill feats. He practically stomped Quinlan Vos in Republic. First they clash blades, after which Agen knocks him away with a physical hit and deprives him of his lightsaber. Quinlan then telekinetically retrieves his lightsaber, attacks Agen, and is trounced again.
This is impressive for Agen because Quinlan is a fairly acclaimed Jedi himself. He held his own against Sora Bulq, whom the old databank held in high esteem. He also managed to fight evenly with Tholme, beat Aayla Secura, beat Tol Skorr, and so on. Additionally, Quinlan has Force feats that rival Qui-Gon's own. He has telekinetically supported a large boulder, seemingly influenced beasts telepathically, taught Aayla how to conceal her presence in the Force, was a known master of psychometry, has used the Force to heal his wounds, etc. Overall, he has a good resumé.
Qui-Gon lacks the feats to compare. For one, he hardly outclasses Quinlan, let alone Agen. Two, when Obi-Wan recalled his and Qui-Gon's encounter with Aurra Sing in Tales, the engagement ended inconclusive after 4 pages as Aurra decided to flee. Conversely, in Jedi: Aayla Secura, Aayla took 8 pages to defeat Aurra. Whether we can draw any comparisons between Qui-Gon and Aayla on that basis alone is arguable, but even if said comparison would favor Qui-Gon, it would only be just. On the other hand, Agen would absolutely wreck Aayla.
To sum up: Qui-Gon has no feats that rival Agen's trashing of Quinlan.
Nice opener. If you're in need of judges I'm perfectly willing to take on the task.
__________________
"You were weak when I found you. I did not expect you to survive your training. But now, your hatred has become your strength. At last, the dark side is your ally. "
Indeed. It wouldn't be good if this discussion resembled that Saesee Tiin vs. Qui-Gon Jinn debate there was had some years ago. Shame I can't recall the competitors...
I'm down for whatever, but Meatpants should have a say in it too.
Good idea, it's better to expand to different topics over time in detail, instead of opening up every avenue right from the start. I've got a tough uphill battle, due to my inexperience and the good opening points you've made. I'll start by establishing a relative power scale of the Jedi you mentioned had interacted with Agen Kolar. I'm quite confident that people would agree with the following:
Sora Bulq > Quinlan Vos > Aayla Secura
Now, Agen Kolar appears to be solidly > Vos and Secura, the former of whom, as you pointed out, contended with Sora Bulq, and beat Secura. Since Secura is the lowest of the three, we'll begin with her. Even though I'm pretty sure everyone would agree that Jinn > Secura, I still think it's a good idea to establish his accolades from the start. Secura has decent accolades.
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She's a confirmed master of Ataru and Jar Kai, and skilled in unarmed combat. She even gave Vos a run for his money, though from the two comic pages I've seen, it appears to me that Vos was temporarily surprised and thrown off balance, rather than Secura being a definitive match or superior.
The problem is, apart from the Aurra stuff (which isn't really that solid to begin with), Jinn just has superior feats. For starters, he's confirmed council tier. In terms of physicality, one could attempt to argue for Secura's age and agility, though this hardly affects the outcome. Jinn is a confirmed match in skill for Darth Maul, which can be extracted from these three quotes:
The combatants surged back and forth across the flats... The Phantom Menace Novelisation
He had matched Maul's furious strokes with a disciplined intensity of his own. End Game
and
Then, just when Qui-Gon's stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul's favour, the incomprehensible had occured: Qui-Gon had fled. End Game
From these, we know that Jinn is a confirmed match in skill to TPM Maul, as he "matched Maul's furious strokes with a disciplined intensity of his own." They were surging back and forth, indicating that Jinn was capable of putting Maul on the defensive regularly, rather than just holding on. Finally, we're told that the battle only started tipping in Maul's favour when Jinn's stamina gave way (he's 60 year-old)..
Now, I'm aware that there's more factors to the fight, such as Maul's minor injury, but I don't really feel like this really affected the battle that much. You could try and argue that during the Naboo duel, Maul was matching both Jinn and Obi simultaneously, but Maul also had his double-bladed lightsaber to use, meaning that it was easier to deal with two opponents, and more importantly it was extremely unorthodox as a weapon. If Maul was using a single blade, I highly doubt he'd be able to hold off both Jedi simultaneously as easily, if at all.
So when it comes to agility, Jinn was capable of roughly matching the considerably agile and skilled Darth Maul in sabers during a high-intensity duel with no preparation, so Secura has no advantage there. Even in his earlier years, Jinn was able to match the agile Tahl during an exhibition tournament, and beating her. His more grounded and heavy-handed approach to Ataru didn't diminish his ability to deal with agile opponents.
Overall, I think it's safe to posit that Jinn was roughly equal in skill* to TPM Maul, who is confirmed as one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the Sith order. Rough parity against that is an accolade that easily surpasses any accolade Aayla Secura holds. On top of that, Jinn has the accolade of being recognised as one of the greatest pure swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order.
*NB: Darth Maul is solidly > Qui-Gon in sabers. All I'm saying is that Jinn's Saber skills are implied to be roughly equal to Maul's, and that his defeat would be due to his flagging stamina, not any deficiency in skill. Furthermore, Maul was "almost" thrown off guard by Jinn's response to Maul's surprise attack, causing him to throw away his usual strategies and combinations within seconds of the duel starting, which to me implies that Jinn would have killed Maul if the latter hadn't adapted within seconds of the duel starting Maul noted that Jinn had perfect balance in the sand, after noting himself that he was proud of his own balance. He was also concerned that Qui-Gon knew his moves before even he knew them, an indicator of Jinn's heavy experience and a testament that he could predict the moves of a Juyo practicioner confirmed as one of the most highly trained Sith in history, before that Sith knew the moves himself. But enough Jinn wanking, I know that Maul > Jinn solidly, but this is implied as being more due to Jinn's flagging stamina, not his Saber skills, which are again implied as roughly equal to Maul's.
Jinn then clearly has far superior combat accolades to Secura, and I would argue is solidly superior to her in skill, and I don't see how her force power feats match or surpass Jinn's at all. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he stomps Aayla, and I haven't even talked about all of Jinn's Saber accolades yet.
Moving on to Quinlan and Bulq now, after I've set the foundations of Jinn's power level relative to Secura. I'll be more brief here and attempt less autistic logic until it needs to be discussed xD
IIRC, Vos ended up using TK to beat Secura, who Jinn is solidly above in sabers as it is. Vos also beat Bulq in sabers (correct me if I mixed context here), and you yourself said that Vos matched Jinn in force fears, rather than surpassed. I really don't see how Vos beats Jinn in sabers or force, considering that Jinn is easily on that level, if not more experienced and deadly. In regards to the old databank's entry on Sora Bulq:
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It's clearly highly impressive, but I'm not convinced that it necessarily trumps Jinn's own Saber accolades. For example, it's logical to assume that being the one of the best pure swordsmen in the history of the Jedi order >> being one of the greatest lightsaber instructors plus being a weapon master. Why? Because Jinn is stated to be solidly above Anoon Bondara, a master of all forms of lightsaber combat, a Jedi weaponmaster and described as being one of the best fighters in the Jedi order. Considering Bulq's accolade of mastering many combat techniques, Jinn has an almost identical accolade, being said to have mastered Dooku's classical fighting techniques (aka Makashi) along with many others from across the galaxy. This accolade basically confirms that Jinn is a master of Form II. Hardly surprising, he was the apprentice of Dooku, who took Jinn on due to his own prodigious lightsaber skills. Furthermore, Jinn was solidly above Juyo masters like Anoon Bondara, a form which only the most skilled master's could learn and master, indicating that Jinn had a technical understanding of every Saber form, at least the basics and how to combat them. The only advantage Bulq has from his databank entry, arguably, is that Windu chose him to experiment and create Vaapad. I don't regard this as much of an edge though. Though this is hardly indicative of superior skill to Jinn.
I'll leave force related feats for later. I've already written enough as it is for now xD. I've had to write this on my phone, so my formatting is crap. I'm also expecting to get raped in the response xD. Your move
Oh also, I meant Bulq is roughly equal to Vos, not superior. I haven't mentioned Kolar yet because I wanted to establish Jinn's mastery vis-a-vis those who are presumably below Agen Kolar to demonstrate that Jinn is actually in his tier. I also apologize again for the formatting, I had to do this on my phone on the move! xD
Last edited by Meatpants on Dec 17th, 2018 at 06:33 AM
Also to quickly add to what I said, Agen Kolar is solid above the three others, who are of themselves roughly at parity with each other. Therefore, proving Jinn > them proves that he wouldn't get trashed by Kolar like Vos was.
Dec 14th, 2018 06:55 PM
