Re: A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies
So are you knowingly making a spite thread, or do you just genuinely have no idea what kind of forces each setting can bring to bear, book-wise?
Because there are individual beings in the armies from the LotR book universe that could bring the entirety of aSoIaF's setting to its knees by themselves.
Always pissed me off how Tolkien loved to write for 20+ pages about bullshit poems and hobbits licking their own assholes, but described epic battles only in a few pages.
Re: Re: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies
No it wouldn't. Aragorn would fodderize the best knights Westeros has to offer, be it Jaime Lannister, Loras, Gregor Clegane, or whoever. And Aragorn is not particularly impressive compared to some beings who have fought in the history of Arda.
"‘There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell."
Gandalf's battle with the balrog ended with him throwing it from the endless stairs of Moria and "breaking" the side of the mountain itself. This was as Gandalf the Grey.
That's just an individual. What exactly could any army in aSoIaF do against LotR's Army of the Dead?
How does anything in aSoIaF compare to Sauron himself?
"Now the lightnings increased and slew men upon the hills, and in the fields, and in the streets of the city; and a fiery bolt smote the dome of the Temple and shore it asunder, and it was wreathed in flame. But the Temple itself was unshaken, and Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed; and in that hour men called him a god and did all that he would."
- Akallabêth; Silmarillion p 280
Sauron is able to defend the island of Numenor from the wrath of the Valar, a council of angels who can reshape continents with their power. He managed this feat while separated from his ring.
"Sauron, greatest and most terrible of the servants of Morgoth, who in the Sindarin tongue was named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion. Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, misshaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves; his dominion was torment. He took Minas Tirith by assault, for a dark cloud of fear fell upon those that defended it; and Orodreth was driven out, and fled to Nargothrond."
- Quenta Silmarillon Ch. 18 “Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin”; Silmarillion p 155-156
Just some feats of his sorcery, casting a "dark cloud of fear" upon the whole of Minas Tirith's defense, allowing it to be easily taken. A huge advantage in a battle.
"‘I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,’ said Boromir. ‘They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.’
‘His arm has grown long indeed,’ said Gimli, ‘if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.’
‘His arm has grown long,’ said Gandalf."
- The Lord of the Rings, book 2, ch 3 “The Ring Goes South”; FotR p 377
A commentary on Sauron's capabilities. Though it is not confirmed that Sauron is the cause of the weather impeding their progress, Gandalf does acknowledge that it is possible, and being that Gandalf is himself a Maia and has known Sauron since the dawn of time, he would be aware of his capabilities.
'Guards were set at the haven of Morionde in the east of the land, where the rocks are dark, watching at the king's command without ceasing for the ships' return. It was night, but there was a bright Moon. They descried ships far off, and they seemed to be sailing west at a speed greater than the storm, though there was little wind. Suddenly the sea became unquiet; it rose until it became like a mountain, and it rolled upon the land. The ships were lifted up, and cast far inland, and lay in the fields. Upon that ship which was cast highest and stood dry upon a hill there was a man, or one in man's shape, but greater than any even of the race of Numenor in stature.
"He stood upon the rock and said: "This is done as a sign of power. For I am Sauron the mighty, servant of the Strong" (wherein he spoke darkly). "I have come. Be glad, men of Numenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world shall be given into his hand."
- The Silmarillion, couldn't find the page
Sauron creates a massive wave which lifts the ships of Numenor, pretty cut and dry.
How about Smaug?
"They had hardly gone any distance down the tunnel when a blow smote the side of the Mountain like the crash of battering-rams made of forest oaks and swung by giants. The rock boomed, the walls cracked and stones fell from the roof on their heads[...]while behind them outside they heard the roar and rumble of Smaug's fury. He was breaking rocks to pieces, smashing wall and cliff with the lashings of his huge tail..." - The Hobbit
Smaug laying waste to the mountain he resided in.
And how far back does this go? Because if we are using all LotR books, then that means the Valar and the most powerful Maiar could be used. Or Melkor, the original Dark Lord and Sauron's master, can be used.
"Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it. And yet their labour was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm. And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars."
-- The Silmarillion
"Then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains. Therefore that region was called Lammoth; for the echoes of his voice dwelt there ever after, so that any who cried aloud in that land awoke them, and all the waste between the hills and the sea was filled with a clamour as of voices in anguish. The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder."
- The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor, Chapter 9, page 85
Morgoth's voice alone can shake mountains and shatter stone.
There or other feats I couldn't quite find, like his laying waste to armies with gouts of flame.
Furthermore, when the Valar and Maia wage war, entire sections of the world are irrevocably destroyed.
"Thus, an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries that the northern regions of the western world were rent asunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new pathsm and the valleys were upheaved and the hills trod down; and Sirion (the river) was no more." - The Silmarillion
The section underwater is what used to be Beleriand.
Here's an example of the kind of beings who fought in the War of Wrath.
"But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin." - The Silmarillion
What are the towers of Thangorodrim? They aren't actually towers. They're mountains.
Did you.... not read the part where Anacalagon falling from the sky destroyed 3 Everest size mountains? Or where Sauron crated a massive wave that beached several Numenorean ships? Or where Osse moved islands with his magic? Or Gandalf killing the Balrog destroyed the mountainside they fought on?
__________________ "I'm the hand of a god! I'm the dark messiah! I'm the vengeful one!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies
They actually do not, Sauron's armies alone at the time of The War of the Ring number well over 300,000. By comparison, The North, one of the largest kingdoms of Westeros, is said in a semi-canon source to summon perhaps 45,000 men. It would take the entire continent of Westeros to be able to match or exceed the forces of Mordor, and that's just Sauron's alone. Never mind the rest of the armies of Middle Earth, or what forces are arrayed in the Battle of the Five Armies, or the armies that fought at the end of the 2nd Age.
Your doubt is irrelevant. You have provided nothing to contradict my stance other than your own beliefs. Without anything backing your argument it has no substance. So why are you even here?
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Sep 8th, 2017 10:16 PM
