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"Magic"
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Mindship
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"Magic"

What's the deal with "magic?"

When I think of "magic," I'm reminded of what kids (and sometimes, adults) do: wishful thinking; "whatever I want will happen;" no rules, no principles; literally just say "the magic words" and ka-boom: done deal. IMO, it borders on PIS, free-reign nonsense, again no-so-different from the "magical thinking" stage children go through in growing up (and no doubt this is where the origins of "magic" lie: back in time, when the human race, in its primitive understanding of the world, confused cause-n-effect relationships between the inner world and the outer world).

Comicologically speaking, what are magic's limits, or is it pretty much just an open-ended plot device? As an example of a "respectable limitation," on the "Bewitched" TV series, Samantha could not undo a spell cast by another witch. Sounded reasonable, set limits. But in the comic world, what goes and what doesn't?


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2005 12:34 PM
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leonidas
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magic is ultimately an energy that is dependent on the source. strange has used many spells that were ineffective or simply not potent enough because the source (the being from whom power is being drawn) is simply not powerful enough to do the task.

there has always been the idea that it is somehow the opposite of 'cosmic' power, but i've never really understood why that has to be the case. magic IS energy, it simply follows its own set of rules. i didn't like that strange was able to use all his artifacts and battle the infinity gauntlet. i think that set a bad precedent, nor do i think it should have been POSSIBLE for him to perform such a feat. but it is canon, so we all have to live with it.


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2005 02:43 PM
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Cosmic Flame
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I've always seen it as "opposite" the power cosmic because magic doesn't follow the rules of physics, but the power cosmic does. We don't often get to see realms based primarily on magic, not physics. I figure that this is why magical beings are often weaker when they come to Earth's dimension. The native magical forces/energies of this dimension are apparently much weaker.

I don't know...it is energy, but I don't know of a way to qualify what type it is other than "magical" energy. Pehaps because magic is more "metaphysical" it has less limits? Who knows?

Incidentally, I agree about Strange. I mean, it was cool and all, but it put Strange at a level beyond abstracts, and that shouldn't be. It also makes one wonder what type of spell he cast and what entities were involved. If it were the Vishanti, that would be funny, considering that Eternity refused to become involved in the War of the Seven Spheres.

Old Post Dec 15th, 2005 04:57 PM
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chilled monkey
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Magic is the art of making things happen by drawing on the powers of the natural world. It is based on the understanding that there exists an 'otherworld' of spirits and deities. Whenever we experience a 'magic moment', such as the birth of a child, we are touching the otherworld.

Magic also describes the inner nature of the beings that make up the universe- the spiritual part of all things that is cosmic and eternal.

Old Post Dec 15th, 2005 09:25 PM
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long pig
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
magic is ultimately an energy that is dependent on the source. strange has used many spells that were ineffective or simply not potent enough because the source (the being from whom power is being drawn) is simply not powerful enough to do the task.

there has always been the idea that it is somehow the opposite of 'cosmic' power, but i've never really understood why that has to be the case. magic IS energy, it simply follows its own set of rules. i didn't like that strange was able to use all his artifacts and battle the infinity gauntlet. i think that set a bad precedent, nor do i think it should have been POSSIBLE for him to perform such a feat. but it is canon, so we all have to live with it.

The I.G was magic. It came from a magical being.
Strange simply used and combined the most powerful magical artifacts in the omniverse(it's been said many times) to counter the most powerful magical artifact in the universe.

See what I'm saying?


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Old Post Dec 15th, 2005 10:03 PM
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Cosmic Flame
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I thought he was a cosmic being, not magical. Although I suppose once you get to a certain level in the hierarchy power type is probably indistinguishable.

Old Post Dec 16th, 2005 07:21 PM
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GalacticStorm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by long pig
The I.G was magic. It came from a magical being.
Strange simply used and combined the most powerful magical artifacts in the omniverse(it's been said many times) to counter the most powerful magical artifact in the universe.

See what I'm saying?


So youre saying that Stranges artifacts are more powerful than theyre Infinity Gem equivalent?

I certainly didnt interpret those scans in that way.


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Old Post Dec 16th, 2005 07:40 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So youre saying that Stranges artifacts are more powerful than theyre Infinity Gem equivalent?

I certainly didnt interpret those scans in that way.


me niether. i thought the IG more cosmically oriented than magically oriented. been a while since i checked that series out. mayhap the time has come to look at it again . . .


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Old Post Dec 16th, 2005 09:28 PM
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Avlon
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Well, I now truly understand how misinformation gets around the forum.


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Old Post Dec 16th, 2005 09:30 PM
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manjaro
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dpends on what universe. DC views magic as we all "know" magic to be, but marvel just views it as just another source, that ppl can subconsciously tap into, in a round about way.

but in a nutshell its the energy derived from a particalr dimension that warps matter and reality to perform "magical" feats, coupled with the fact that beings magicians invoke lend some of thier stored essence


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Old Post Dec 16th, 2005 09:37 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by manjaro
but in a nutshell its the energy derived from a particalr dimension that warps matter and reality to perform "magical" feats, coupled with the fact that beings magicians invoke lend some of thier stored essence


I like that...gives a sense that there are some "laws of preternature" which would set plot-enhancing limits.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2005 02:23 AM
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long pig
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So youre saying that Stranges artifacts are more powerful than theyre Infinity Gem equivalent?

I certainly didnt interpret those scans in that way.

Not at all. Strange would have lost if the fight went further.

But, saying it was wrong for him to stand up to it is off the mark. He is logically capable of it BECAUSE of his artifacts/magical resources are the most powerful of their kind in the multiverse.

Strange does indeed have access to power, when combined, that is somewhat comparable to some of the I.G's feats.

I mean, that's all that happened in the fight. AW said "I use my time gem!" Strange counters with an equally powerful artifact. AW says "I use my mind gem!" Strange counters with an equally powerful artifact.
AW says "Ok, fine. I use them all together!" Strange counters with all his powers together.

In magic, it's all about one-upping. That's all that happened.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2005 06:21 AM
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GalacticStorm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by long pig
Not at all. Strange would have lost if the fight went further.

But, saying it was wrong for him to stand up to it is off the mark. He is logically capable of it BECAUSE of his artifacts/magical resources are the most powerful of their kind in the multiverse.

Strange does indeed have access to power, when combined, that is somewhat comparable to some of the I.G's feats.

I mean, that's all that happened in the fight. AW said "I use my time gem!" Strange counters with an equally powerful artifact. AW says "I use my mind gem!" Strange counters with an equally powerful artifact.
AW says "Ok, fine. I use them all together!" Strange counters with all his powers together.

In magic, it's all about one-upping. That's all that happened.


But here youre basically still saying that Stranges artifacts are more powerful or on a par with their I Gem equivalent. Thats not what was shown in the scans. He negated the effects of Adams attacks but that doesnt mean what youre implying here. He never outpowered or overrided Adams efforts. He found a way around them. Strange has done the same to LT doesnt mean he's on the same level.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2005 02:01 PM
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long pig
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Well....they were very close to equal.

First, time gem. Warlock used it. Strange countered it's effect. He didn't find a way around, he countered with a spell. Just one spell.

Second, space gem. Warlock used it. Strange countered it's effect with a spell. Ending in negation.

Third, reality gem. Warlock used it. Strange countered it's effect.

Fourth, mind gem. Warlock used it. Strange countered it's effect.

It wasn't a plot hole way around the powers, he just happened to have a spell/artifact that can compete with the gems. It's part of being SS. You get the most powerful weapons/artifacts in the multiverse just for such occasions.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2005 11:18 PM
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ScarletSpider
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Getting back to the base of this topic, Magic in comics varies from writer to writer and by character. Most of Grant Morrison's writings involving magic have to do with the mystically alteration of perceptions. Is the world really how we see it, or can we pull some strings and change the scenery and the laws? Given that Morrison survives on a diet of hallucinogenic mushrooms, his writings involving magic are usually really ****ing weird, but good.

The definitions of magic, cosmic, and mystic are hard to pin down in comics. Originally they seemed to be not quite synonymous, but not wholly sepereate things. Silver Surfer often referred to his board as mystic, and enchanted, while now people would say it's advanced cosmic manipulation, etc.. Some writers, such as Warren Ellis have taken the stance that Magic is just science so advanced it's engineering has been almost forgotten, and it's taken on the appearance of magic to us (much as a modern day handgun would seem magical to the earliest of homo sapiens). Ellis sort of explained the Asgardians as being aliens with technology so advanced, they'd almost forgotten the principles of it themselves, and took it to be that they manipulated mystic energies.

Some writers have made super science and magic synonymous, mostly being a couple Superman writers I can't pin down at the moment, when listing Superman's weaknesses, they say "magic (super science)." That denotes that Super Science would be the same as Magic.

It really depends on the writer and the story they want to tell. I like the portrayal of magic being humans, or someone mystically adept, tapping into various energy fields--like more esoteric and ultramundane versions of the electromagnetic field or gravitational field.


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Old Post Dec 18th, 2005 04:43 AM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ScarletSpider
Getting back to the base of this topic, Magic in comics varies from writer to writer and by character. Most of Grant Morrison's writings involving magic have to do with the mystically alteration of perceptions. Is the world really how we see it, or can we pull some strings and change the scenery and the laws? Given that Morrison survives on a diet of hallucinogenic mushrooms, his writings involving magic are usually really ****ing weird, but good.

The definitions of magic, cosmic, and mystic are hard to pin down in comics. Originally they seemed to be not quite synonymous, but not wholly sepereate things. Silver Surfer often referred to his board as mystic, and enchanted, while now people would say it's advanced cosmic manipulation, etc.. Some writers, such as Warren Ellis have taken the stance that Magic is just science so advanced it's engineering has been almost forgotten, and it's taken on the appearance of magic to us (much as a modern day handgun would seem magical to the earliest of homo sapiens). Ellis sort of explained the Asgardians as being aliens with technology so advanced, they'd almost forgotten the principles of it themselves, and took it to be that they manipulated mystic energies.

Some writers have made super science and magic synonymous, mostly being a couple Superman writers I can't pin down at the moment, when listing Superman's weaknesses, they say "magic (super science)." That denotes that Super Science would be the same as Magic.

It really depends on the writer and the story they want to tell. I like the portrayal of magic being humans, or someone mystically adept, tapping into various energy fields--like more esoteric and ultramundane versions of the electromagnetic field or gravitational field.


Clarke's Law: any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic.


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2005 01:29 AM
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ScarletSpider
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Some writers go by that rule, and some differentiate--"this just seems magical, but is really our super Titanian Eternal science yadda yadda," or "this is magic, no science here, it's magic, get over it, here's a rabbit."


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2005 03:06 AM
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Psycho Ninja
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Magic = Undiscovered Science !!!


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2005 10:50 AM
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