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The Punisher is Superhuman. It's official!!!!
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Deadline
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Tongue The Punisher is Superhuman. It's official!!!!

I got this from Marvel.com about The Punisher. This is for all you who say The Punisher cant hit Spiderman (This does not mean he can beat Spiderman by the way):

Additionally, he is a preternaturally-precise marksman.

This is from a dictionary site:

pre‧ter‧nat‧u‧ral  /ˌpritərˈnætʃərəl, -ˈnætʃrəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pree-ter-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective

1. out of the ordinary course of nature; exceptional or abnormal: preternatural powers.
2. outside of nature; supernatural.


I keep telling you clowns that talents can be a substitute for powers with humans and heres the proof!


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Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 05:47 PM
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Soljer
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Preternatural marksman.

He has good AIM.

Like bullseye, just not NEARLY as good as bullseye.

This does NOT mean he could EVER hit Spiderman. Hell, the two (bullseye or the Punisher) can't hit Daredevil, either.

Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 06:00 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer
Preternatural marksman.

He has good AIM.

Like bullseye, just not NEARLY as good as bullseye.


Yeah but he still has superhuman aim.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer

This does NOT mean he could EVER hit Spiderman. Hell, the two (bullseye or the Punisher) can't hit Daredevil, either.


He has hit DD before...


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Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 06:03 PM
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Soljer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but he still has superhuman aim.



He has hit DD before...


Yes? And?

Look at how often Spiderman or the Flash get hit.

Does that make it right, just because 'it's happened'?


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Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 06:08 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer
Yes? And?

Look at how often Spiderman or the Flash get hit.

Does that make it right, just because 'it's happened'?


Er you're contradicting yourself a bit here. I think you said that Cap in the past has been descrbed as being prenatural, you used this as proof to say he can also be classified as superhuman. You have also said that talented humans have time and time again used their talents to outclass superhumans.

So you're saying now that this is all wrong? Furthermore cant really compare Flash to Spiderman. I think the DC Flash is even faster than classic quicksilver. The Flash is HUGELY faster than Spiderman, as far as I know The Flash is so fast he should NEVER get hit.


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Last edited by Deadline on Nov 5th, 2006 at 06:17 PM

Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 06:11 PM
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Superherovandal
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he has great aim but not so good that he's in the superhuman area. He's exceptional but not superhuman


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Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 09:29 PM
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Digi
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This is ridiculous, and the 2ns time you've tried to mince words to further some random theory.

Frank ain't hitting Spidey with anything ever unless it's got a helluva lot of spread (like, say, a nuke).

roll eyes (sarcastic)


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Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 09:39 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
Er you're contradicting yourself a bit here. I think you said that Cap in the past has been descrbed as being prenatural, you used this as proof to say he can also be classified as superhuman. You have also said that talented humans have time and time again used their talents to outclass superhumans.

So you're saying now that this is all wrong? Furthermore cant really compare Flash to Spiderman. I think the DC Flash is even faster than classic quicksilver. The Flash is HUGELY faster than Spiderman, as far as I know The Flash is so fast he should NEVER get hit.



He wasn't comparing the two in terms of speed, he was saying these two shouldn't get hit as much as they do yes


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Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 10:56 PM
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tsilamini
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Re: The Punisher is Superhuman. It's official!!!!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
I got this from Marvel.com about The Punisher. This is for all you who say The Punisher cant hit Spiderman (This does not mean he can beat Spiderman by the way):


1) Marvel.com, along with handbooks are not definitive sources. It is heartbreaking, totally asinine that they dont have accurate info on their sites or in their books, but thats the way it is.

It is WAY more likely that people like us on these boards have a greater ammount and diversity of knowledge about these characters, and we have set our own criteria for how to deem certain things, outside of the official word.

Now, the ONLY reason we do this, is because, in MANY MANY cases, the info on the site or in the books is not reliable. Basically, the comics contridict the handbooks and vice-versa. Here there is more importance placed upon in book feats, though to try and eliminate certain writer biases we use handbooks or official statements. There is a balance that is needed, but failing any in book reason to assume that the Punisher is not human, he is human.

2) The reason that Punisher CAN'T hit spiderman has nothing to do with either his classification of human or with his aim. a)In comics, guns always job and b) Spiderman has a spidersense.

Basically, punisher or any other gunman cannot hit spiderman because he knows he is going to be shot before he is and it thus, able to react before the shot is fired. This means, that even if frank had god like aim, it is redundant, because he can never get a clear shot at spidey (This is the explination of how the SS works, I don't necessarily buy this, but it is one of those maxims in comics, it has to be true that this is how spiderman works).

Realistically, you wouldnt even need increadably accurate aim to shoot spidey. Provided he starts far enough away, and you know how to fire a weapon at a moving target. In a real world version of the Marvel U, Punisher would be one of the most powerful characters.

Basically, even if frank was the greatest marksman in the universe, physics in the marvel universe, as they pertain to spiderman, basically state that he can avoid bullets indefinatly. It also says this for characters like Daredevil and Captain America, however this is normally pushed aside as the PIS it is.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
Additionally, he is a preternaturally-precise marksman.

This is from a dictionary site:

preternatural

1. out of the ordinary course of nature; exceptional or abnormal: preternatural powers.
2. outside of nature; supernatural.


To begin with, your argument is ridiculous. The site DOES NOT USE THE WORD SUPERHUMAN.

In fact, it uses a word like preternatural

now, ill let this definition stand, though recommend people look up a more explicitive description of the word, especially why it is not the same as SUPERnatural.

Preternatural, like supernatural, deals with things that are not "natural". Whereas supernatural deals with things like the divine or magic, preternatural deals with more plausable, almost more of the "extremeties" of real.

For instance, someone with the same ability to smell as well a dog can, would be said to have a beyond natural sense of smell. While supernatural CAN be used, it is MORE correct to use preternatural (unless you are saying that it is a God given super power or something for this person to smell at beyond human levels).

Now, why would Marvel go out of their way to use an obscure word that means ALMOST the same thing as supernatural? BECAUSE THEY DIDNT WANT TO USE SUPERNATURAL.

Yes, they wish to imply that the punisher has better aim than any human, they wish to say that it is so good it shouldn't be human. However, the fact that they use the "preter" rather than "super" shows that they are specifically stating that there is no real unhuman signifigance to this. By not using "super" they are trying to say that Frank really is human, if capable of doing things beyond human capacity.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
I keep telling you clowns that talents can be a substitute for powers with humans


I dont think anyone is arguing this with you.

talents and powers should be synonimus, especially in human level characters.

However, this says nothing for the degree of the power, and more importantly, words like "superhuman" are normally given because of the origin of the powers and not their proficency.

Punisher has had no super soldier serums, no injuries that have effected has aiming capacity, no cybernetic augmentations. He is a human. That doesnt mean he can't aim like a badass mofo, it just means he is human.

Achually, your argument doesnt follow to your thesis here. If the punisher is human, then yes, sure, his aiming talent can be a "power", but if he is superhuman as you suggest, then why even include this? Certainly he isnt a superhuman BECAUSE of his talent, since that would be akin to me saying Wayne Gretzky or Micheal Jordan are superhuman simply because there are no other people out there that are as talented as they are (or were).

Punisher is preter-human, not super-human. He is a human capable of doing things naturally that normal humans can only dream of, but he is no more than a human.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
and heres the proof!


wow, you went to all the trouble to look up preternatural but not proof

makes me think you have never had to use logic in an argument.....


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Old Post Nov 5th, 2006 11:35 PM
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Soljer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
Er you're contradicting yourself a bit here. I think you said that Cap in the past has been descrbed as being prenatural, you used this as proof to say he can also be classified as superhuman. You have also said that talented humans have time and time again used their talents to outclass superhumans.

So you're saying now that this is all wrong? Furthermore cant really compare Flash to Spiderman. I think the DC Flash is even faster than classic quicksilver. The Flash is HUGELY faster than Spiderman, as far as I know The Flash is so fast he should NEVER get hit.


I did say in the past that Cap was classified as preternatural, which is synonymous with supernatural.

However, that was referring to strength, not aim.

Bullseye isn't superhuman either, and he has MUCH better aim than the punisher. Just because either of these two characters have supernatural or superhuman aim does NOT mean they are supernatural or superhuman themselves.

Also, neither of them are EVER hitting spidey. Not in the forums, anyways.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2006 12:22 AM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007
This is ridiculous, and the 2ns time you've tried to mince words to further some random theory.

Frank ain't hitting Spidey with anything ever unless it's got a helluva lot of spread (like, say, a nuke).

roll eyes (sarcastic)



Whoa, whoa, whoa are ypu trying to bust my balls? Thats right this is the second time. The first time I made my point about Cap and I backed it up. You said absolutely nothing first time, so dont come back here and run your mouth unless you got something produtive to say.


In all honesty I am pushing it a bit with Frank, I dont know that much about him im just making discussion, but basically the first time you never even replied to my response. I tell you what since you think you're such a bad*** reply to my Cap post or just leave me alone.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by inamilist
1) Marvel.com, along with handbooks are not definitive sources. It is heartbreaking, totally asinine that they dont have accurate info on their sites or in their books, but thats the way it is.


Yes to tell you the truth I am just making discussion if I knew more about his character maybe I could find stuff to back it up.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by inamilist

2) The reason that Punisher CAN'T hit spiderman has nothing to do with either his classification of human or with his aim. a)In comics, guns always job and b) Spiderman has a spidersense.


*sigh* Spiderman always gets grief from talented humans. I can imagine him dodging the first shot but I cant see why Frank could not get him eventually with a barrage of shots. Basically I think Frank would need prep to hit Spiderman.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by inamilist

Basically, even if frank was the greatest marksman in the universe, physics in the marvel universe, as they pertain to spiderman, basically state that he can avoid bullets indefinatly. It also says this for characters like Daredevil and Captain America, however this is normally pushed aside as the PIS it is.


Cap and DD are superhuman. There is plenty of info to prove it.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by inamilist

To begin with, your argument is ridiculous. The site DOES NOT USE THE WORD SUPERHUMAN.

In fact, it uses a word like preternatural

now, ill let this definition stand, though recommend people look up a more explicitive description of the word, especially why it is not the same as SUPERnatural.

Preternatural, like supernatural, deals with things that are not "natural". Whereas supernatural deals with things like the divine or magic, preternatural deals with more plausable, almost more of the "extremeties" of real.

For instance, someone with the same ability to smell as well a dog can, would be said to have a beyond natural sense of smell. While supernatural CAN be used, it is MORE correct to use preternatural (unless you are saying that it is a God given super power or something for this person to smell at beyond human levels).

Now, why would Marvel go out of their way to use an obscure word that means ALMOST the same thing as supernatural? BECAUSE THEY DIDNT WANT TO USE SUPERNATURAL.

Yes, they wish to imply that the punisher has better aim than any human, they wish to say that it is so good it shouldn't be human. However, the fact that they use the "preter" rather than "super" shows that they are specifically stating that there is no real unhuman signifigance to this. By not using "super" they are trying to say that Frank really is human, if capable of doing things beyond human capacity.


To tell you the truth I am just being controverisal but the fact of the matter is that prenatural can mean the samething as superhuman depending on the context. If there is enough evidence of Punisher hitting people wioth superhuman reflexes with his gun then the term can mean superhuman.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by inamilist

Achually, your argument doesnt follow to your thesis here. If the punisher is human, then yes, sure, his aiming talent can be a "power", but if he is superhuman as you suggest, then why even include this? Certainly he isnt a superhuman BECAUSE of his talent, since that would be akin to me saying Wayne Gretzky or Micheal Jordan are superhuman simply because there are no other people out there that are as talented as they are (or were).


This is were guys like you dont get it. Humans in the MU are different from humans in the real world. For staters human beings were experimented on by the Celestials therefor giving all humans mutated genes. Not not everyone can fly but you're average MU has greater potential. Futhermore this is Mantis's bio from Marvel.com.

Abilities
Through training with the Priests of Pama, Mantis attained "complete control" over her body, achieving peak human agility, the ability to accelerate her recuperative powers through force of will, and an empathic nature enabling her to sense the emotions of others as "psychic vibrations." Her mastery of the Priests' martial arts, which focus on manipulation of nerve endings and pressure points, has enabled her to knock out beings as powerful as Thor

Well basically her ability to knock out people like Thor is not classified as a power but common sense dictates that it is the equivalent of a power. Like I said humans use talents as the equivalent of powers so Punishers skills with guns could be considered to be a power even if it is not classified as one, depending on his showings in the comics.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer
I did say in the past that Cap was classified as preternatural, which is synonymous with supernatural.


So supernatural is not a similar term to superhuman.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer

However, that was referring to strength, not aim.


So what? You were trying to prove that Cap could be considered to be superhuman.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer

Bullseye isn't superhuman either, and he has MUCH better aim than the punisher.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer

Just because either of these two characters have supernatural or superhuman aim does NOT mean they are supernatural or superhuman themselves.


Do I have to elaborate on whats wrong with this statement?


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Soljer

Also, neither of them are EVER hitting spidey. Not in the forums, anyways.


But Captain America is?


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2006 10:50 AM
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Digi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
Whoa, whoa, whoa are ypu trying to bust my balls? Thats right this is the second time. The first time I made my point about Cap and I backed it up. You said absolutely nothing first time, so dont come back here and run your mouth unless you got something produtive to say.


In all honesty I am pushing it a bit with Frank, I dont know that much about him im just making discussion, but basically the first time you never even replied to my response. I tell you what since you think you're such a bad*** reply to my Cap post or just leave me alone.


This would be amusing if you weren't actually serious.

First, I believe I did respond to your Cap post, saying something to the effect of "That's fine and all, but it's really nothing we didn't know about Cap before this." I also remember something concerning how much a ton actually is (2000lbs.) because there was some confusion over it. So, essentially, I agreed with you.

And as for saying something productive, I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my knowledge of the characters. Last I checked that's allowed on these forums.

It wasn't a personal attack, and it wasn't anything except how I feel about Frank being able to to hit Spidey. So quit trying to act all self-righteous when there isn't anything to be upset about.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2006 04:07 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007
This is ridiculous, and the 2ns time you've tried to mince words to further some random theory.

Frank ain't hitting Spidey with anything ever unless it's got a helluva lot of spread (like, say, a nuke).

roll eyes (sarcastic)


yes confused shifty yes


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2006 04:13 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007
This would be amusing if you weren't actually serious.

First, I believe I did respond to your Cap post, saying something to the effect of "That's fine and all, but it's really nothing we didn't know about Cap before this." I also remember something concerning how much a ton actually is (2000lbs.) because there was some confusion over it. So, essentially, I agreed with you.


From what I remember you didnt agree with me and didnt reply to my rebuttal.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007

And as for saying something productive, I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my knowledge of the characters. Last I checked that's allowed on these forums.


Thats fine but you implied that I was talking nonsense again, you were refering to my Cap post. You also said you agreed with me on the Cap post, but you also implied I was talking nonsense on my Cap post.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007

It wasn't a personal attack, and it wasn't anything except how I feel about Frank being able to to hit Spidey. So quit trying to act all self-righteous when there isn't anything to be upset about.


To tell you the truth, I was in a real bad mood earlier, so I could be getting this all wrong.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2006 04:15 PM
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roughrider
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Batman. Captain America. The Punisher.
Three interesting characters who are virtually all peak human in their abilities.
Why are some people obsessed with wanting to make them superhuman? What they have is enough.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2006 04:38 PM
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Deadline
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
Batman. Captain America. The Punisher.
Three interesting characters who are virtually all peak human in their abilities.
Why are some people obsessed with wanting to make them superhuman? What they have is enough.


I know but people keep screaming PIS, it gets on my nerves.


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Old Post Nov 6th, 2006 06:53 PM
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Yeah Punisher, lets just say he is boarderline superhuman in aim, durability, and stamina...


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 06:01 PM
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Digi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
From what I remember you didnt agree with me and didnt reply to my rebuttal.


Actually, I had 3 posts on the 1st page. You actually responded to me once to.

And yes, I was cautiously agreeing with you, saying that we already knew Cap was superhuman, and that your information didn't tell us anything new about him. So I agreed, but conditioned it with the opinion that it was nothing new.

Here are 2 of the posts:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Is this about Cap or Cable??

And a hero complimenting another hardly makes it truth. Hell, Superman has said that basically the entire JLA could beat him at one point or another, and we all know how true that is. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Cap has enhanced reflexes, his body doesn't produce toxins so his stamina is incredible, some sick fighting skills, and can lift about half a ton, give or take.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Key words "give or take". I've been around long enough to know that it depends on the writer and the level of PIS that's required for the situation. So please don't call me to task about Cap being able to lift 1-2 tons. I'm well aware...

P.S. 1 Ton = 2000 lbs. Your reference to 1100 lbs immediately followed by assertion of 2 tons had me confused....you might be doing your math wrong. Half a ton = 1000 lbs.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Anyway, my whole point has been that the one scan posted shouldn't be used as an excuse to think Cap is any more powerful than we already assumed. The minutia of my point has been deconstructed, though, to the point where that's been lost.

And beyond that, saying that something is "incorrect" without leaving wiggle room denies the very essence of the varying levels of comic characters depending on the issue and feat. The handbook has Cap at about 1000lbs, so I'm not in the wrong. I realize that a feat or two may speak otherwise, but I'm talking about norms rather than extremes.


quote:
Thats fine but you implied that I was talking nonsense again, you were refering to my Cap post. You also said you agreed with me on the Cap post, but you also implied I was talking nonsense on my Cap post.


Actually, here's what I wrote:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DigiMark007
This is ridiculous, and the 2ns time you've tried to mince words to further some random theory.

Frank ain't hitting Spidey with anything ever unless it's got a helluva lot of spread (like, say, a nuke).


...no, I wasn't agreeing with you. But "random theory" doesn't imply "incorrect". I disagree with the Frank stuff, but it was in no way meant to imply that I thought the stuff on Cap was nonsense. In fact, I don't directly mention Cap or voice any opinions on him...I may have referenced it, but my opinion was quite obviously just about Frank. You're putting words in my mouth again. erm

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alfheim
To tell you the truth, I was in a real bad mood earlier, so I could be getting this all wrong.


Yeah, probably. Bit of advice bud: Don't make something into a personal war when you don't need to. I may voice differing opinions, but I'm not "against" you, and nothing is ever meant personally.


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Last edited by Digi on Nov 12th, 2006 at 06:58 PM

Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 06:55 PM
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tsilamini
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ok, someone needs to clarify here

as far as I know, superhuman doesn't have anything to do with someone's power level but the nature in how they obtained their powers.

Punisher would be human because he is a human and has trained to be as badass as he is

superhuman would be someone who is an altered human, so like cap where he had the SS serum. Something non-human made him better.

what is wrong with these definitions?


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 07:01 PM
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Soljer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jgiant
Yeah Punisher, lets just say he is boarderline superhuman in aim, durability, and stamina...


But...he isn't.

Guy isn't even PEAK human in any of those.


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 07:03 PM
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