In the past we have had things like 2000AD, WARRIOR even Martial Law and Evil Ernie. I argue they are now subsumed and merely part of the mainstream. I have tried to identify when this happened. I would have said Watchmen led the way. Faust etc. were still counter culture after this, so when?
I would argue that the kind of people and groups who produced them in the past of have embraced internet comics, instead. Digitalizing the counter culture, if you will
Interesting idea. I would say though that the internet comics generally are poor imitations of the printed mainstream, but i'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
The thing is, no and not really. Many comics like the Eagle were actually created by the establishment with specific cultural goals. The code A Authority prevented most mainstream comics in the US being coounter culture till its demise.
True, however my original post was about counter culture to mainstream comics culture. That said the mainstream is not counter culture on the macro. They might not know what the I.G. saga was, but, they would recognise the names and appearance of many characters involved. As long ago as the seventies, Paul McCartney did a record with wings called, "Magneto and the Titanium man". In it he even references characters like the Crimson Dynamo. Joe Satriani did the album surfing with the Alien. The spin Doctors "a pocketful of Kryptonite". The Kinks from the sixties "(I wish I could fly)like Superman". etc, etc. The mainstream was hardly subversive. Many kids bought comics.
As for the Japan point. Japanese storytelling often had art as a major component. It's why they embraced American comics so strongly. The European etchings at around the same time also used a pictorial style. Neither were like American comic books.
Oh, then I would have to say that comics are probably too broad a genera to decide what is exactly main stream. Things like Nextwave or GJI or Deadpool subvert the common "hero" genera but are probably common enough to be their own section of the comic world.
I'm not sure what you mean here.
The presence of celebrities who enjoy and reference comics doesn't make them mainstream. Most people know about Superman nowadays because their parents quotes the radio show or they saw the movies.
Sure some parts of comics (such as K-nite, Superman, the Xmen etc) have become popculture. But they tend to stand alone while things that are actually current in comics or integral to their various worlds remain unknown outside of people who read comics. Things that become mainstream get referenced commonly outside of their niche.
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Superman 40's series, 50's series, 60's animated, 7o's movies, 80's movies and Superboy series, nineties series and animated, 2000 series.
Batman, Spiderman, etc....
Pretty mainstream.
Even true counter culture like Tank Girl and Dredd have had movies... So people at least know who they are albeit in a dilluted form. Even the Watchmen gets a movie. Sin City was big budget (It was counter culture once). What's your point?
The characters may be well known but not the comicbook's themselves. The Spideman of the movies has many dissimilarities from the Spiderman of comics but people don't know that because the comics are not mainstream enough for people to realize there is a difference.
IMO you're mixing characters and genera.
Also, Watchmen had/is getting a movie?
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The first spiderman movie had really only superficial alterations to his original origin. Two again was a clever attempt at bringing several famous storylines together. I will not discuss the abomination that was three.
I'm not really mixing genres, in the sense that they are all counter culture comics or comic characters in my last paragraph. Yes, Watchmen is getting a movie. Directed by Zack Snyder who directed The 300. Also, in my opinion, the 300 was a minority interest graphic novel, which, is now mainstream.
But they still fell far behind what the character had become by the time they were being made.
My point is that there is a difference between the character and the medium it is presented in. Spiderman is well known but not because people read comics, the same with Superman or Batman or Hulk. However because comics aren't mainstream characters that are a well known among fans are obscure the laymen (Thanos, Gladiator, MartianManhunter, Kilowog, Blackbolt) etc.
To give a different example plenty of people know about DnD but few would have any idea who Jozan or Lidda are because knowledge of the concept exists but specifics are still a niche.
Or if someone mentioned S&M a person would know what was meant, but if someone were to mention SSC in the same context the person who have no idea what was meant. Again general concepts are known but specifics remain relegated to niche groups.
The same idea applies to comics. Some stuff becomes well known but the genera is not mainstream enough for the average person to know anything more than what gets leaked into popculture (and probably not even understand those bits)
Cool.
I've seen little interest in the graphic novel itself.
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Dec 8th, 2007 11:12 PM
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