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Comicbook logic off; how should the Cosmic Hierarchy rank?
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TheLordofMurder
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Comicbook logic off; how should the Cosmic Hierarchy rank?

In comics there are a great many things that go on, are assumed/implied, or happen that make absolutely no sense...

Case in point, Death and Eternity (or Life and Death) are typically considered to be beyond Order and Chaos, but logically this is utterly ridiculous...

Order and Chaos shape every single event that occurs in every region of the universe, from the interaction of extremely short lived subatomic phenomena to large scale hypernova detonations...no event can transpire in the universe that Order and Chaos doesnt have a hand in.

Death and Eternity (Life and Death), on the other hand, have only a small fraction of influence in the universe as most of the universe is not suitable to manufacture, support, or maintain life...thus while Death and Eternity definitely should rank as universal forces, they should be minor compared to Order and Chaos.


Galactus, who consumes entire worlds for sustainance, should NOT be one of "The Astral Deities of the Universe" if logic is a factor...

His cosmic job appears to be (atleast according to Odin during "The Trial of Reed Richards") an agent of natural selection; the strongest worlds survive his coming and go on to populate the universe while the weak ones fail and are destroyed forever....

This event occurs on a monthly (or once every few months; this has changed and I am not entirely sure how frequent Galactus must feed at current) basis...

The fact that there are over a trillion planets in our Galaxy alone and that our Galaxy is only one of trillions of Galaxies across the universe, one must conclude that Galactus's cosmic job is not as important as comics assume it is...

Thus his current "ranking" as a major universal power makes no sense at all; you'd need multiple Galactus's operating simutaneously across the universe simply to have this job performed efficiently...


All of that said, though, Galactus should be FAR more powerful than any Skyfather...

When Galactus comes to destroy a planet, logically, every single hero/villian/deity on the target planet should rise up to defend their world; not a single team of heroes like the Fantastic Four (which reeks of PIS if you really think about it)...

If Galactus is to be powerful enough to fulfill his cosmic job, he should be able to defeat multiple Skyfathers and their entire pantheons simutaneously (it makes sense to me that every world in the universe that plays host to advanced life would have their own set of Skyfathers just like Earth does)...

Again, for him to do his duty, only the strongest of the strong worlds (in their entirety) should be capable of survive the coming of Galactus...


Abstracts like Love and Hate, should rank even lower than Death, and Eternity; Love and Hate can only exist in regions of the universe where advanced life exists...thus they should only operate at a fraction of the level of power that Death and Eternity do.

Lower forms of life like microbes and simple extremophiles should be much more commonplace than advanced, intelligent, life; advanced life should be rare compared to simple life...

Thus Death and Eternity should defintely have more universal influence than these two...


Anyway, rant off, but let me leave you all with this simple question: if real logic was the determining factor (and not comicbook logic) how would the Cosmic Hierarchy rank in your honest opinion?


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Last edited by TheLordofMurder on Jun 20th, 2011 at 10:03 PM

Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 09:50 PM
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tsilamini
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at what point does real logic start and comic logic stop? logically, Galactus doesn't exist, nor do abstracts


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yes, a million times yes

Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 09:54 PM
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TheLordofMurder
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by inimalist
at what point does real logic start and comic logic stop? logically, Galactus doesn't exist, nor do abstracts


Of course Galactus doesnt exist, but in the context of comics he does...

If one was to still write the comics, but simutaneously inject "some" logic (like is done in the Ultimate Universe) into the process then how would the Cosmics rank?


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:01 PM
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tsilamini
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however the creators of the fictional universe want them to, as the logic of that universe is dependent on what they write, not on anything we can infer from our universe.


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yes, a million times yes

Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:06 PM
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TheLordofMurder
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Well the thread does say "Comicbook logic off," so we arent using the writers logic here, but our own...

Using your logical deductions, how should the Cosmics rank?


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:08 PM
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tsilamini
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...

the ways in which the writers depict them...

or

they don't exist by my logic...

like, do you mean if I were writing comics? I wouldn't have them, I think they are dumb. Galactus and some other characters are interesting, but the abstracts and all that are boring and completely illogical in the first place


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:10 PM
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JakeTheBank
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Of course Galactus doesnt exist, but in the context of comics he does...

If one was to still write the comics, but simutaneously inject "some" logic (like is done in the Ultimate Universe) into the process then how would the Cosmics rank?


I don't think we should ask for any influence from the Ultimate Universe in mainstream Marvel.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:26 PM
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rotiart
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Well the thread does say "Comicbook logic off," so we arent using the writers logic here, but our own...

Using your logical deductions, how should the Cosmics rank?


However the writers want them to...
Btw wrong forum.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:39 PM
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zopzop
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LoM, Eternity isn't just "life" anymore. He keeps going from the sum total of the universe to the supreme aspect of Time. So depending on which version of him you want to use, things can go either way.

Let's just use the SANE definition of him : the Supreme aspect of Time.

Having said that :

Living Tribunal - at the very top, nothing should logically be above him save for his creator, if there is one.

Eternity (as supreme Time aspect), Infinity (as supreme Space aspect) come next

Universal Forces come next. The Phoenix Force, the Goblin Force (you can move these guys below Order/Chaos if you want but above the "All other abstracts tier").

Order and Chaos come next, with Order ultimately winning out (if the universe ultimately suffers "heat death" some time in the distant future) but for now they balanced.

All other abstracts that are below the top dogs come next : Love/Hate, Anomaly, etc...

Inbetweener and Galactus come next. They are balancing forces in the universe (or at least Galactus used to be sad ).

Non abstracts come next, like the Celestials and Cube Beings.

Below them are Cosmics that aren't as powerful as Celestials but are important to the universe in some way (since their influence extends beyond a particular world or solar system). The Elders, The Stranger, Cytorrak, etc...

Next up are supremely powerful deities like Odin, Set, Chthon, Gaea, Zeus, etc.. basically Skyfathers and Elder Gods

Bottom of the heap for now : Death and Oblivion yet they ultimately wind up on top if the universe collapses in on itself (Oblivion wins) or the universe keeps expanding but everything in it dies because all the stars eventually die (Death wins).


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:42 PM
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AlmightyKfish
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quote:
His cosmic job appears to be (atleast according to Odin during "The Trial of Reed Richards") an agent of natural selection; the strongest worlds survive his coming and go on to populate the universe while the weak ones fail and are destroyed forever....


Well as much as Odin might think that, it's been stated on panel by other abstracts, LT etc that Galactus' actual role is to provide balance between Eternity/Infinity and Death/Oblivion.

He's far more important than most of the universe knows, as he's meant to balance out life/death across the universe through his existance and actions.

This is somehow achieved by eating planets, but hey, it's comics.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:44 PM
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Digi
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*reads OP*

*pauses*

*weeps*


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:47 PM
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Uriel005
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If that were the case then Flash would be up there along with juggernaut as avatars of cosmic beings/power Cytorrak and the Speed force relatively speaking.

Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:50 PM
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rotiart
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Oh. Asuming real logic is applied?
Every abstract/hero/villain... No namer means about the same thing... Cause inthe real world they are just drops of ink on a sheet of paper.


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Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."

Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:51 PM
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Badabing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
In comics there are a great many things that go on, are assumed/implied, or happen that make absolutely no sense...

Case in point, Death and Eternity (or Life and Death) are typically considered to be beyond Order and Chaos, but logically this is utterly ridiculous...

Order and Chaos shape every single event that occurs in every region of the universe, from the interaction of extremely short lived subatomic phenomena to large scale hypernova detonations...no event can transpire in the universe that Order and Chaos doesnt have a hand in.

Death and Eternity (Life and Death), on the other hand, have only a small fraction of influence in the universe as most of the universe is not suitable to manufacture, support, or maintain life...thus while Death and Eternity definitely should rank as universal forces, they should be minor compared to Order and Chaos.


Galactus, who consumes entire worlds for sustainance, should NOT be one of "The Astral Deities of the Universe" if logic is a factor...

His cosmic job appears to be (atleast according to Odin during "The Trial of Reed Richards") an agent of natural selection; the strongest worlds survive his coming and go on to populate the universe while the weak ones fail and are destroyed forever....

This event occurs on a monthly (or once every few months; this has changed and I am not entirely sure how frequent Galactus must feed at current) basis...

The fact that there are over a trillion planets in our Galaxy alone and that our Galaxy is only one of trillions of Galaxies across the universe, one must conclude that Galactus's cosmic job is not as important as comics assume it is...

Thus his current "ranking" as a major universal power makes no sense at all; you'd need multiple Galactus's operating simutaneously across the universe simply to have this job performed efficiently...


All of that said, though, Galactus should be FAR more powerful than any Skyfather...

When Galactus comes to destroy a planet, logically, every single hero/villian/deity on the target planet should rise up to defend their world; not a single team of heroes like the Fantastic Four (which reeks of PIS if you really think about it)...

If Galactus is to be powerful enough to fulfill his cosmic job, he should be able to defeat multiple Skyfathers and their entire pantheons simutaneously (it makes sense to me that every world in the universe that plays host to advanced life would have their own set of Skyfathers just like Earth does)...

Again, for him to do his duty, only the strongest of the strong worlds (in their entirety) should be capable of survive the coming of Galactus...


Abstracts like Love and Hate, should rank even lower than Death, and Eternity; Love and Hate can only exist in regions of the universe where advanced life exists...thus they should only operate at a fraction of the level of power that Death and Eternity do.

Lower forms of life like microbes and simple extremophiles should be much more commonplace than advanced, intelligent, life; advanced life should be rare compared to simple life...

Thus Death and Eternity should defintely have more universal influence than these two...


Anyway, rant off, but let me leave you all with this simple question: if real logic was the determining factor (and not comicbook logic) how would the Cosmic Hierarchy rank in your honest opinion?
Had you not put effort into this thread, I would have closed it instead of moving it. Maybe Digi will allow it in this forum...


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 10:58 PM
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Digi
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I'll let this go I suppose. Quantifying a hierarchy of abstracts in a "logical" or "real world" sense is nonsensical and laughable though, imo.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2011 11:21 PM
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