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Invulnerability versus Strength
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bluewaterrider
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Invulnerability versus Strength

Lot of people seem to equate durability with physical strength.

You can have the qualities of durability and physical strength co-existing with each other. In most instances, however, they're really not the same. We'll explore the distinction here.

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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 08:28 PM
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bluewaterrider
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I'll periodically supply reference information for my entries and experiment with various size and format presentations.

This is a scene from Mark Waid's Legion of Super-Heroes, fifth volume, for instance, where Ultra Boy tries to impress one time-stranded Kara Zor-el, and fails miserably ...

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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 08:34 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Mini-end scene. Note that using his power to make himself strong did NOT protect Ultra Boy from being ROCKED by his opposition, as Kara pointed out in the previous panel.

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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 08:39 PM
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JakeTheBank
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Ultra-Boy is specifically a bad example to use as he can either only be super strong or invulnerable.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 08:42 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Ultra-Boy is specifically a bad example to use as he can either only be super strong or invulnerable.


This is an entire thread dedicated to the question, Jake.
You can be certain he won't be the only example.

I disagree that Ultra Boy would be a bad example, by the way.
Extreme examples tend to be the clearest examples, not moderate ones that feature a mix of the 2 qualities being examined.

Ultra Boy's case makes the distinction about as clear as can be.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 08:52 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Lot of people seem to equate durability with physical strength.

You can have the qualities of durability and physical strength co-existing with each other. In most instances, however, they're really not the same.
I think what most people say is that, in order to "realistically" have/use extreme physical strength, the character's body needs to be strong enough to tolerate the tensile, compressive and other stresses imposed by deployment of that strength. Eg, you might be strong enough to military-press a building, but if your body isn't up to par, your bones will snap, ligaments will tear, and the skin (of your palms) will be crushed. (Frankly, the "one power at a time" thing noted in the scans strikes me as gimmicky.)

On the other hand, while I don't think you can have (or shouldn't, anyway) extreme strength wthout extreme durability, offhand I don't see why you couldn't have the durability w/o the strength.

Regardless, this brings up something I've wondered about : given a certain level of strength, what would be an appropriate level of durability? For example, if you can press a mountain, should you be able to withstand a nuke? Or from the other direction: if you're bulletproof, what level of strength would be proportionate?


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 08:52 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Kara versus Titanic. Image 1. Gravimetric tractor beam toss.

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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 09:10 PM
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bluewaterrider
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In answer to your question, Mindship, I think the following level of durability would suffice for most any modern character.

The fact that our young heroine here regards feeling pain from so many tons of steel slamming into her side as an indicator that something is WRONG with her ...


Kara versus Titanic. Image 2. Impact. Gravitygun ammo...

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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 09:16 PM
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-Pr-
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Sort of confused as to why we're exploring the distinction. Just curious...


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 09:26 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Sort of confused as to why we're exploring the distinction. Just curious...
Curious too.

Eg, Superman can benchpress the Earth for 5 days straight with barely no sweat, not stopping to recharge. What should we expect his durability to be? What would be disappointing?


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 09:34 PM
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-Pr-
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Well Superman has always been stronger than durable, but still; if he can't handle planetary impacts, that would be a bad thing.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 09:44 PM
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Endless Mike
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If you don't have some kind of super durability wouldn't you rip your body apart when trying to perform a super strength feat like lifting a building?


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 09:59 PM
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-Pr-
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It really should.

There are characters that are more durable than they are strong (Colossus, Aquaman), and then characters who are the other way around (Superman, Hulk).

It varies.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 10:11 PM
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bluewaterrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by -Pr-
Well Superman has always been stronger than durable, but still; if he can't handle planetary impacts, that would be a bad thing.


Actually, the reverse seems to be the case for Superman; he's tougher than he is strong to judge from everything I've seen to date.
Same seems to be generally true of other Kryptonians.

Maybe you've seen something different; I'll be interested to see what you present.

I agree with you on Hulk, though.

Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 10:19 PM
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-Pr-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Actually, the reverse seems to be the case for Superman; he's tougher than he is strong to judge from everything I've seen to date.
Same seems to be generally true of other Kryptonians.

Maybe you've seen something different; I'll be interested to see what you present.

I agree with you on Hulk, though.


Superman is very, very durable. I wouldn't argue that. But his strength feats like the infinite book, pushing warworld, the five earth press and such, say to me that he's stronger than he is durable.

If you want to argue that he's more durable, that's fine; he is insanely durable.


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Old Post Nov 13th, 2012 10:23 PM
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abhilegend
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@using ultra boy.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2012 01:04 AM
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Slaanesh
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if u have super strength..u gonna be super durable too..it's a package..

Old Post Nov 14th, 2012 04:04 AM
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Newjak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Slaanesh
if u have super strength..u gonna be super durable too..it's a package..
The reverse is also going to be true

If your muscles and tendons are as hard as steel you'll be able to exert more force.


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2012 12:38 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Newjak
The reverse is also going to be true

If your muscles and tendons are as hard as steel you'll be able to exert more force.
Okay, I'm going to be a nit-picker...

Tendons don't contract, so they don't exert any mobile force. And what makes muscles contract -- specifically, what makes muscular contraction stronger -- is 1) the number of contractile filaments in the muscle fibers, and 2) the strength of the neural signal, ie, how deeply it reaches into the muscle (and consequently how many filaments it activates).

On the other hand, many characters have been described as having extremely dense tissue, which one could translate as having a helluva lot of contractile filaments in a muscle of given size. Also, generally, the more dense something is, the harder it is to damage.

But comicological physics, being what they are, I can see extreme durability present w/o extreme strength, maybe because, eg, the molecular bonds of all body tissues are stronger (though again, these molecular bonds are not what causes muscles to contract).

Like I said, nit-picky. smile


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Old Post Nov 14th, 2012 03:08 PM
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bluewaterrider
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Old Post Nov 15th, 2012 02:29 PM
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