Gender: Male Location: Drifting off around the bend
Christ and God are one, so what are we?
So, if Biblical passages state Christ and God are "one", and this being "one" implies one single entity as God manifested in more than one form, what does the above verse imply?
Gender: Male Location: Drifting off around the bend
That is my belief, but using that statement one must state that Christ and God being one does not infer one in being as is held by Trinitarian Doctrine.
Well it is the "Body of Christ" which is talked about that everyone is in by most churches. But it really isn't being a part of his body and the fathers body, though I feel that we are all part of the grandness of something bigger. And its said by many that one isn't part of that body unless you can prove it by speaking in tongues for example. The gnostics, I believe, felt that having the Christ, or being part of the Christ was not really being apart of an actual body but being closer in spirit and in truth.
Last edited by debbiejo on Jan 28th, 2007 at 01:22 AM
When considering the verse we need to take into consideration all the verses in which Jesus mentions oneness.
John 10:
28 And I give eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall my any man pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one.
The Greek word for 'one' used here is 'hen' which indicates one in essence not one physical entity which would be 'heis'.
I think this makes it quite clear that Jesus is indeed the same as the Father. One essence two manifestations.
John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which believe on Me through their word.
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one is Us: that the world may believe that Thou has sent Me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfected in one, and that the world amy know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.
This strongly suggests that the God and Jesus share the same spirit and that through baptism in the Holy Spirit the believers to may be one in them despite possessing human spirits as well.
Gender: Male Location: Drifting off around the bend
The verses you quoted all use the same form of the word one, "hen", thus man can be assumed to be of the same essence as the Father and Christ, for Christ stated that man "also may be one in Us... even as we are one." At least if the phrase "I and My Father are one" actually means "one in essence."
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
I would say that to be an atheist you would have to NOT believe in God in any way. I consider myself to be a theist because I do believe in the Mystic Law, and in a simplified way, the Mystic Law could be viewed as God. However, I don't worship the Mystic Law. It would be like worshiping gravity.
As I said the Holy Spirit is what makes us one with the Father and Jesus, however, the unlike us Jesus only possesses one spirit, the Holy Spirit and God only possesses one spirit, the Holy Spirit. Jesus and God, whom share the same name as indicated by Jesus, control the Holy Spirit whereas we can only use its authority through the use of their name. God and Jesus are unified in essence purely while we still have our own spirits.
* this statement is very broad, especially because it involves God the Father and Jesus Christ...
* we can say that this statement tells us that Jesus implied that He, like His Father, is a God... why? let us read...
"Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),"
John 10:32-35
* the Jews somewhat understood the statement Jesus declared... the statement, "I and the Father are one" may indirectly imply that Jesus declared Himself a God or equal to God... which Biblically is also correct...
"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross."
Philippians 2:5-8
* Jesus, before He was minfested in the flesh, had an equality with God...
* the statement, "I and the Father are one" may also imply Jesus being the express image of God...
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
Hebrews 1:1-3
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
II Corinthians 4:3-4
"Who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
In whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;"
Colossians 1:13-15
* and it was very evident in this scenario...
"Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?"
John 14:8-9
* the statement, "I and the Father are one" may also tell us that the Father and Christ are united... in essence, in purpose, in everything...
"And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one;"
John 17:11, 22
* and that should be the mindset for Christians, true Christians, to be one with each other, as Christ and the Father always have...
I keep trying to add things to myself (Buddhist, Taoist, Atheist, etc.) where it applies, while at the same time shunning the societal adherence to labels....one of the more idiotic dichotomies of my existence, I'll admit, but meh.
I just think that "god" is an inappropriate term for it (perhaps your Mystic Law is better) simply because we live in a culture where conceptions of "God" are so strongly personififed, that it's almost impossible to extract that meaning from it to create a new one.
Well I believe that everything is "One" in essence. And it could be that Jesus was speaking of this and saying that if we believed his words we could be one also in knowing this and not being really separate which we think that we are.
Being one of essence can be broad which is why context is so important.
John 10:
28 And I give eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall my any man pluck them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and My Father are one.
In this context Jesus is indeed claiming to be God in the flesh.
Hebrews 1:3 is one of the worst translated verses in the entire Bible.
'Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high'
should be more like this:
'Who being the effulgence of His glory, and the exact impression of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power*, when He had purged sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.'
The word substance is extremely important.
*The Greek word translated as power is 'dunamis' which is an inherent power capable of reproducing itself (as in the case of Jesus).
When Jesus talks about the believers being one the context dictates that we are to all share one Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit and therefore be one in purpose and essence as Jesus and God are, however, Jesus and God are of one substance and are also the same person as indicated by Isaiah 44:6 which says
'Thus saith Yahweh the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the Lord of Host; "I am the first and I am the last; beside Me there is no God". Since we know that Jesus existed 'from everlasting' according to Micah 5:2 we know that Jesus must indeed be God.
Furthermore we have Isaiah 48:12-13
'...I am He; I am the first and the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together."
This tells us that God created the world and when Jesus is acknowledged as creating the world we know that Jesus was indeed God.
Gender: Male Location: Southern Oregon,
Looking at you.
In support of what you just wrote is the fact that no human can understand the Mystic Law. The Mystic Law cannot be fit into a model. If you try to describe God, you will be wrong; you cannot do it.
KMC Community Forums
Jan 28th, 2007 01:09 AM
