KillerMovies - Movies That Matter!

REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Home » Community » General Discussion Forum » "Italian Schindler" actually Nazi collaborator

"Italian Schindler" actually Nazi collaborator
Started by: Omega Vision

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
Omega Vision
Face Flowed Into Her Eyes

Gender: Male
Location: Miami Metropolitan Area

"Italian Schindler" actually Nazi collaborator

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/a....html?ref=world

quote:
He has been called the Italian Schindler, credited with helping to save 5,000 Jews during the Holocaust. Giovanni Palatucci, a wartime police official, has been honored in Israel, in New York and in Italy, where squares and promenades have been named in his honor, and in the Vatican, where Pope John Paul II declared him a martyr, a step toward potential sainthood.


quote:
But at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, the tale of his heroic exploits is being removed from an exhibition after officials there learned of new evidence suggesting that, far from being a hero, he was an enthusiastic Nazi collaborator involved in the deporting of Jews to Auschwitz. A letter sent this month to the museum’s director by the Centro Primo Levi at the Center for Jewish Studies in New York stated that a research panel of more than a dozen scholars who reviewed nearly 700 documents concluded that for six years, Palatucci was “a willing executor of the racial legislation and — after taking the oath to Mussolini’s Social Republic, collaborated with the Nazis.” The letter said that Italian and German records provided no evidence that he had helped Jews during the war and that the first mention only surfaced years later, in 1952. Researchers also found documents that showed Palatucci had helped the Germans identify Jews to round up. There is no established explanation for how the account of Palatucci’s heroics took hold, but some experts say its persistence owed much to the flattering light it shed on Italy after the war. Scholars said the new evidence surfaced in recent years as they gained access to documents. The goal of their research, they said, was to understand the role of Fiume, the city where Palatucci worked, as a breeding ground for fascism; the documents that undermined the account of Palatucci’s selfless heroism were a byproduct of that investigation. Palatucci has been credited with saving thousands of Jews between 1940 and 1944 while he was police chief in Fiume, an Adriatic port city that was considered the first symbol of Italy’s new Fascist Empire. (It is now called Rijeka and is part of Croatia.) When the Nazis occupied the city in 1943, for example, Palatucci was said to have destroyed records to prevent the Germans from sending Fiume’s Jews to concentration camps. His own death at age 35 in a camp at Dachau seemed to corroborate his valor. But Natalia Indrimi, the executive director of the Centro Primo Levi, said historians have been able to review these supposedly destroyed records in the Rijeka State Archives. What they show, said Dr. Indrimi, who coordinated the research, is that Fiume had only 500 Jews by 1943, and that most of them — 412, or about 80 percent — ended up at Auschwitz, a higher percentage than in any other Italian city. The research on Palatucci found that rather than being police chief, he was the adjunct deputy commissary responsible for enforcing Fascist Italy’s racial laws. What’s more, his deportation to Dachau in 1944 was not related to saving Jews but to German accusations of embezzlement and treason for passing plans for the postwar independence of Fiume to the British.


quote:
An estimated 9,000 Jews were deported from Italy during World War II. But experts have noted that, although the 45,000 Jews in Italy were persecuted, most survived the war. Still, many scholars portray the belated claims of some Italians that they went out of their way to save Jews as part of an attempt to recast Italy’s Fascist past. “The default statement of every Fascist leader after the war was that ‘I helped the Jews,’ ” Dr. Indrimi said. Alexander Stille, a professor at the Columbia University journalism school who has reviewed some of the documents, said the Palatucci case is a result of three powerful institutions, all with a vested interest in publicizing what appeared to be a heroic tale: “The Italian government was anxious to rehabilitate itself and show that they were better and more humane than their Nazi allies. The Catholic Church was eager to tell a positive story about the church’s role during the war, and the State of Israel was eager to promote the idea of righteous gentiles and tell stories of right-minded ordinary people who helped to save ordinary Jews.” Mr. Stille, whose recent family memoir, “The Force of Things,” includes a tale about his Jewish grandfather in Fiume, said, “Palatucci was the beneficiary of that.”


__________________

“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Last edited by Omega Vision on Jun 20th, 2013 at 03:08 AM

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 03:06 AM
Omega Vision is currently offline Click here to Send Omega Vision a Private Message Find more posts by Omega Vision Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Lord Lucien
Lets all love Lain

Gender: Male
Location:

Gotta admire a guy that can get admired for like 70 years after his death for doing things he didn't do.


__________________
Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 03:26 AM
Lord Lucien is currently offline Click here to Send Lord Lucien a Private Message Find more posts by Lord Lucien Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ushgarak
Paladin

Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Co-Admin

On a somewhat tangential subject, I wish people would stop labelling others as the X Schindler for saving Jews. There's this guy who was working for British intelligence who saved a huge bunch and got labelled in the press as 'The British Schindler' and it was noted that he 'saved more Jews than Schindler'.

This kind of talk is annoying on two levels. First, the fascination of the Schindler story is that he was PART of the system, and not on any level of trying to infiltrate it from the inside. He was a Nazi Party member (though mostly for convenience) who went to Poland to make a shedload of money (and did) and used forced Jewish labour because it was cheap; he got the initial investment by effectively intimidating it out of rich Jewish locals by saying "Give me all your money because what good is it to you now?'. Because he was a hard-headed businessman (and bon viveur) above all else, he valued his workers and tried to keep them safe. He was uninterested in anti-semitism but hardly a resistance man. So the story is how this man who had only had everything to lose by playing against the system but everything to gain by staying with it- indeed, he had more money than he could ever have spent- deliberately threw it all away in favour of people he had no such association with. He utterly destroyed his life and his future to get 'his' people out, but what he lost in practicality he gained in a spiritual fashion. It's a fantastically powerful piece of natural drama. It's actually relatively easy to find straight heroes (or possibly fake heroes in this case) who did heroic, life saving deeds and they should be greatly honoured, of course, but none of them can truly be compared to Schindler, by the very basic nature of what Schindler represents.

The other issue is much simpler; people should stop banging on about scale. One of the entire points of the Schindler mythology is that scale doesn't matter; the scene in the film where he finally breaks down because of a matter of how many handfuls of extra Jews he might have been able to get out is particularly poignant because of this. 'He who saves one life saves the world entire' is the saying they inscribed into Schindler's ring they gave him at the end, and that really is the point.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 09:39 AM
Ushgarak is currently offline Click here to Send Ushgarak a Private Message Find more posts by Ushgarak Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Omega Vision
Face Flowed Into Her Eyes

Gender: Male
Location: Miami Metropolitan Area

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
On a somewhat tangential subject, I wish people would stop labelling others as the X Schindler for saving Jews. There's this guy who was working for British intelligence who saved a huge bunch and got labelled in the press as 'The British Schindler' and it was noted that he 'saved more Jews than Schindler'.

This kind of talk is annoying on two levels. First, the fascination of the Schindler story is that he was PART of the system, and not on any level of trying to infiltrate it from the inside. He was a Nazi Party member (though mostly for convenience) who went to Poland to make a shedload of money (and did) and used forced Jewish labour because it was cheap; he got the initial investment by effectively intimidating it out of rich Jewish locals by saying "Give me all your money because what good is it to you now?'. Because he was a hard-headed businessman (and bon viveur) above all else, he valued his workers and tried to keep them safe. He was uninterested in anti-semitism but hardly a resistance man. So the story is how this man who had only had everything to lose by playing against the system but everything to gain by staying with it- indeed, he had more money than he could ever have spent- deliberately threw it all away in favour of people he had no such association with. He utterly destroyed his life and his future to get 'his' people out, but what he lost in practicality he gained in a spiritual fashion. It's a fantastically powerful piece of natural drama. It's actually relatively easy to find straight heroes (or possibly fake heroes in this case) who did heroic, life saving deeds and they should be greatly honoured, of course, but none of them can truly be compared to Schindler, by the very basic nature of what Schindler represents.

The other issue is much simpler; people should stop banging on about scale. One of the entire points of the Schindler mythology is that scale doesn't matter; the scene in the film where he finally breaks down because of a matter of how many handfuls of extra Jews he might have been able to get out is particularly poignant because of this. 'He who saves one life saves the world entire' is the saying they inscribed into Schindler's ring they gave him at the end, and that really is the point.

I pretty much agree.


__________________

“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 02:23 PM
Omega Vision is currently offline Click here to Send Omega Vision a Private Message Find more posts by Omega Vision Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
tsilamini
Junior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

I find the concept behind the thread a bit confusing, we are surprised a Nazi was actually a Nazi even though they weren't always 100% cartoonish super-villains?

cool story OV, not trying to be critical of you, it just reminds me of the human inability to see people and events as morally grey.

actually, the stories of German nuclear physicists are very interesting for these reasons.


__________________
yes, a million times yes

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 02:34 PM
tsilamini is currently offline Click here to Send tsilamini a Private Message Find more posts by tsilamini Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ushgarak
Paladin

Gender: Male
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Co-Admin

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Oliver North
I find the concept behind the thread a bit confusing, we are surprised a Nazi was actually a Nazi even though they weren't always 100% cartoonish super-villains?

cool story OV, not trying to be critical of you, it just reminds me of the human inability to see people and events as morally grey.

actually, the stories of German nuclear physicists are very interesting for these reasons.


I think there might be some interest in how the myth, if myth it was, was established. The angle that it was pro-Italian propaganda in the post-Nazi period says something about that time.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 02:40 PM
Ushgarak is currently offline Click here to Send Ushgarak a Private Message Find more posts by Ushgarak Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
tsilamini
Junior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think there might be some interest in how the myth, if myth it was, was established. The angle that it was pro-Italian propaganda in the post-Nazi period says something about that time.


oh, for sure, and the stuff about the Israeli's promoting these individuals to try and paint their own picture about the behaviour of people during the war is interesting as well, I wasn't trying to do one of those "how is this news?" type arguments at all.

As a psychologists, however, I do find the tendency for people to sort of believe in the "all or none" version of morality or personality interesting as well. The fact that we don't naturally assume that a Nazi, who might have saved some Jews, would actually be a Nazi demonstrates a lot about the biases humans have when judging people and situations. /shrug

I mean, sure, it isn't altogether the most surprising thing, but that's how I look at this story; I just get confused because I assume everyone has the same pedantic need for nuance as I do stick out tongue


__________________
yes, a million times yes

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 03:19 PM
tsilamini is currently offline Click here to Send tsilamini a Private Message Find more posts by tsilamini Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
soopercavell
Restricted

Gender:
Location: United Kingdom

Account Restricted

Was being a Nazi a bad thing in the 1940's?

-Mitch

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 09:19 PM
soopercavell is currently offline Click here to Send soopercavell a Private Message Find more posts by soopercavell Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Omega Vision
Face Flowed Into Her Eyes

Gender: Male
Location: Miami Metropolitan Area

What interested me in the article is how people who need a hero will create one out of someone who may be an ordinary guy, or even amoral or morally reprehensible.

These sorts of myths can be incredibly destructive. The best example of that is the North Korean ruling family. Kim Il-Sung was by all (non-North Korean) accounts not a very important or successful resistance fighter against the Japanese, and had the Soviets never invaded Korea he'd probably have died by a Japanese firing squad, or disappeared into obscurity. Yet the Soviets saw in him a malleable puppet leader, and created a Stalinist (Stalin's revolutionary exploits, it should be noted, were similarly exaggerated when he came to power, though he probably had more cred than Kim) cult of personality around him, and look where the country (and the region) is now.


__________________

“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 09:30 PM
Omega Vision is currently offline Click here to Send Omega Vision a Private Message Find more posts by Omega Vision Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
soopercavell
Restricted

Gender:
Location: United Kingdom

Account Restricted

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
What interested me in the article is how people who need a hero will create one out of someone who may be an ordinary guy, or even amoral or morally reprehensible.

These sorts of myths can be incredibly destructive. The best example of that is the North Korean ruling family. Kim Il-Sung was by all (non-North Korean) accounts not a very important or successful resistance fighter against the Japanese, and had the Soviets never invaded Korea he'd probably have died by a Japanese firing squad, or disappeared into obscurity. Yet the Soviets saw in him a malleable puppet leader, and created a Stalinist (Stalin's revolutionary exploits, it should be noted, were similarly exaggerated when he came to power, though he probably had more cred than Kim) cult of personality around him, and look where the country (and the region) is now.


They were holding out for a hero. He had to be strong, he had to be tough, he had to be larger thaN life.

-Mitch

Last edited by soopercavell on Jun 20th, 2013 at 09:34 PM

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 09:32 PM
soopercavell is currently offline Click here to Send soopercavell a Private Message Find more posts by soopercavell Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Omega Vision
Face Flowed Into Her Eyes

Gender: Male
Location: Miami Metropolitan Area

quote: (post)
Originally posted by soopercavell
They were holding out for a hero. He had to be strong, he had to be tough, he had to be larger thaN life.

-Mitch

The whole point was that he wasn't a hero, and that he didn't become "larger than life" by his own merit.


__________________

“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 09:44 PM
Omega Vision is currently offline Click here to Send Omega Vision a Private Message Find more posts by Omega Vision Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
soopercavell
Restricted

Gender:
Location: United Kingdom

Account Restricted

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
The whole point was that he wasn't a hero, and that he didn't become "larger than life" by his own merit.


The whole point is, the people were holding out for one...... Everyone has skeletons, sadly many Nazi's also had lampshades made of skin as well as feet of clay.

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 09:47 PM
soopercavell is currently offline Click here to Send soopercavell a Private Message Find more posts by soopercavell Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Bardock42
Junior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Omega Vision
The whole point was that he wasn't a hero, and that he didn't become "larger than life" by his own merit.


He's quoting a Bonnie Tyler song.


__________________

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 10:25 PM
Bardock42 is currently offline Click here to Send Bardock42 a Private Message Find more posts by Bardock42 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Omega Vision
Face Flowed Into Her Eyes

Gender: Male
Location: Miami Metropolitan Area

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Bardock42
He's quoting a Bonnie Tyler song.

Oh, that must have gotten caught by my crappy music filter.


__________________

“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."

-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 11:01 PM
Omega Vision is currently offline Click here to Send Omega Vision a Private Message Find more posts by Omega Vision Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Bardock42
Junior Member

Gender: Unspecified
Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves

I guess her songs must have totally eclipsed your heart.


__________________

Old Post Jun 20th, 2013 11:03 PM
Bardock42 is currently offline Click here to Send Bardock42 a Private Message Find more posts by Bardock42 Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Darth Jello
Cheese Spelunker

Gender: Male
Location: Denver Metro, CO

So he's not the Italian Schindler, he's the Italian Mother Teresa?


__________________
Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2013 09:06 AM
Darth Jello is currently offline Click here to Send Darth Jello a Private Message Find more posts by Darth Jello Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Lord Lucien
Lets all love Lain

Gender: Male
Location:

Oh snap.


__________________
Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.

Old Post Jun 23rd, 2013 09:18 AM
Lord Lucien is currently offline Click here to Send Lord Lucien a Private Message Find more posts by Lord Lucien Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 08:51 AM.
  Last Thread   Next Thread

Home » Community » General Discussion Forum » "Italian Schindler" actually Nazi collaborator

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.