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Lucifer Morningstar vs. HOM Scarlet Witch
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batdude123
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Lucifer Morningstar vs. HOM Scarlet Witch

Who the f*ck wins?


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Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 06:55 PM
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Astner
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I will have to go with Lucifer, Wanda may be at prime mutant level.
But nothing compared to Lucifer.

Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 06:57 PM
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Mr Master
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Lucifer wins.

He Created a Universe.

Wanda only Remade one.


In order:

1. Create

2. Remake

3 Destroy


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Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:24 PM
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UniOmni
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But, didn't he require the power of Micheal to do so?


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Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:32 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Lucifer wins.

He Created a Universe.

Wanda only Remade one.


In order:

1. Create

2. Remake

3 Destroy

You can also see it this way:

[World's funnest] Mxyzptlk destroyed all realities (Omniverse)
Wanda could have destroyed the Omniverse (Chaos Wave).

So they are about equal.
However, Lucifer is second only to Yawhew:

Presence/Yewhew > Lucifer >> Mxy = Wanda (chaos wave)

Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:33 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by UniOmni
But, didn't he require the power of Micheal to do so?

Nope, he didn't require.
Yewhew just forced him to make it in the old way.
So he had to use Michael's (Yewhew's power)- powers.

I think it was stated that he could have created it without him.

Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:34 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
You can also see it this way:

[World's funnest] Mxyzptlk destroyed all realities (Omniverse)
Wanda could have destroyed the Omniverse (Chaos Wave).

So they are about equal.
However, Lucifer is second only to Yawhew:

Presence/Yewhew > Lucifer >> Mxy = Wanda (chaos wave)


On Mxy's best day he wouldn't defeat a Chaos Wave Wanda.

And Mxy destroyed a Multi-verse NOT an Omni-verse.


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Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:45 PM
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Astner
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
On Mxy's best day he wouldn't defeat a Chaos Wave Wanda.

And Mxy destroyed a Multi-verse NOT an Omni-verse.

I am pretty sure it said: All alternate dimentions and universes.
It was only he and the paper left . . . And of course, Bat-mite

Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:50 PM
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leonidas
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seems a chaos wave wanda is a non-wanda from all i've seen. since she can't control the wave, why do we keep counting it as a seeming part of her powerset?

even if she did somehow unleash the wave in a battle with someone, it was counterable, and the release of the wave didn't even wipe out everyone in 616 so why would it destroy someone she was battling face-to-face?

if we make things up and arbitrarily GRANT her 'wave powers' i guess we can have this discussion, but since (as far as i can tell) there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence that she consciously started the wave and that it wasn't simply a result of her tampering (a by-product of her REAL powerset) i just don't understand all this wanda-the-omniverse-destroyer talk.

erm


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Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:57 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
On Mxy's best day he wouldn't defeat a Chaos Wave Wanda.

And Mxy destroyed a Multi-verse NOT an Omni-verse.

World's Funniest Mr mxy treated Spectre like an idiot.


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Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 07:58 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggernaut66666
World's Funniest Mr mxy treated Spectre like an idiot.

1. Worlds funnest.

And what did classic Beyonder and Molecule man do to the Living Tribunal? -- Treated him like an idiot.

Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 08:02 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
the wave, why do we keep counting it as a seeming part of her powerset?


Because Wanda generated the Wave.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
and the release of the wave didn't even wipe out everyone in 616 so why would it destroy someone she was battling face-to-face?


meh,

but it did destroy countless Universes

"Your Dimension is a Cancer, bringing DEVASTATION to BRANES (Universes) ALL ALONG the SIDEREAL STRING"
(please log in to view the image)
"Sparing Yours condemns the REST"


Had it spilled into 616, there would have been NO WAY to Stop it.

Right before the Breach was sealed:

"Do it ROMA, For ALL OUR SAKES, Do it Now" (and the're in OTHERWORLD, FAR from 616)
(please log in to view the image)

Had the Chaos Wave entered through the RIFT, the OMNI-VERSE would have been OBLITERATED into CHAOS


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
but since (as far as i can tell) there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence that she consciously started the wave and that it wasn't simply a result of her tampering (a by-product of her REAL powerset)


Please, not you Leon, the waters between us have only been recently cleared.

This sounds eerie familiar.

"a by product of her powerset" you say, where did you read that?

If you can show me one instance where it is even hinted, that the Chaos Wave came about on it's own, I'll agree.


Until then, even Roma didn't know.

(please log in to view the image)


The only hint we have as to how the Wave existed is this:

"a trans-temporal Tsunami. ORIGINATING from Earth 616" (where Wanda is)

(please log in to view the image)


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i just don't understand all this wanda-the-omniverse-destroyer talk.


Your gonna have to take this up with the writers of HOM, since they came up with the idea.


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Last edited by Mr Master on Oct 20th, 2006 at 08:42 PM

Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 08:40 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
meh,

but it did destroy countless Universes


but NOT 616. doesn't that imply that the wave came from somewhere OTHER than wanda -- i mean other than emanating DIRECTLY from wanda's person? if it came 'right out of wanda', like, say, a hex bolt, surely the first thing it would have destroyed would have been everything in the area immediately around her THEN escalated out into the multiverse.

[qoute]Please, not you Leon, the waters between us have only been recently cleared.

This sounds eerie familiar.

"a by product of her powerset" you say, where did you read that?

If you can show me one instance where it is even hinted, that the Chaos Wave came about on it's own, I'll agree.


Until then, even Roma didn't know.[/quote]

'fraid they're about to get muddied again. big grin civilly this time, i hope. smile

in any event, you sort of shot down your OWN case while shooting at mine. i will freely admit that this is speculation on my part, (because once again, no CONCLUSIVE evidence supports either interpretation) but how can your view be any less speculatory when you yourself showed a scan stating roma herself didn't know where the wave came from? were it as simple as -- the wave came from wanda' wouldn't roma have KNOWN that? she (or her omniversal cronies) seemed to believe that it emanated from the 616 and so felt wiping out 616 ('genocide') would stop the wave. does it not follow that if they thought it was from wanda, that they would suggest just wiping out wanda?

quote:
The only hint we have as to how the Wave existed is this:

"a trans-temporal Tsunami. ORIGINATING from Earth 616" (where Wanda is)


true enough, but hardly conclusive in and of itself. that was also where wanda was wreaking havoc. i'm just not sure how you can be so seemingly certain that the wave came right from wanda when:

(a) nothing AROUND her was affected by its alleged release yet it 'destroyed universes'

(b) nothing ON PANEL says it CAME from wanda, but rather says it came from 616 where she was AND where she was remaking and tampering with reality

(c) even ROMA wasn't certain where it came from. and here it seems to me it would have been easy enough for her to know if it came from one single person as roma et al., are hardly stupid or uninformed beings.

(d) roma (or one of the omniversal gang) wanted to wipe out ALL the 616 to stop it -- not just wanda.

be clear -- i'm not categorically dismissing your view. just that from ALL the scans i've seen on this issue, it seems there is at least as much (and more imo, which is why i see it differently than you do) 'circumstantial proof' to say the wave was a by-product of her tampering as there is 'circumstantial proof' that the wave came directly from her. erm


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Old Post Oct 20th, 2006 10:12 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
but NOT 616. doesn't that imply that the wave came from somewhere OTHER than wanda -- i mean other than emanating DIRECTLY from wanda's person? if it came 'right out of wanda', like, say, a hex bolt, surely the first thing it would have destroyed would have been everything in the area immediately around her THEN escalated out into the multiverse.


Good point, but why would Wanda destroy herself?

I think she subconsciously didn't allow it to wipe out 616 immediately.


And before you jump into, then why was it going to enter 616 in the end:

This is from HOM #1
(please log in to view the image)

The more Wanda Remade the Universe, the less she cared about Reality, because as X says, "she was losing her grip on Reality"

By the time the Wave reached 616, HOM was one issue away from finishing.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
'fraid they're about to get muddied again. big grin civilly this time, i hope. smile


No, please,

you're a great debater, and you most certainly do not need to succumb to anyone's opinion around here, and to tell you the truth, I like your ideas, speculations, theories and sensible truths.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
in any event, you sort of shot down your OWN case while shooting at mine. i will freely admit that this is speculation on my part, (because once again, no CONCLUSIVE evidence supports either interpretation) but how can your view be any less speculatory when you yourself showed a scan stating roma herself didn't know where the wave came from?


Ey,

I did say "the only HINT we have", I never made anything concrete.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
were it as simple as -- the wave came from wanda' wouldn't roma have KNOWN that? she (or her omniversal cronies) seemed to believe that it emanated from the 616 and so felt wiping out 616 ('genocide') would stop the wave. does it not follow that if they thought it was from wanda, that they would suggest just wiping out wanda?


Roma said, "the localized effects are so severe, I am unable to ascertain the cause"

So there was a reason behind her ignorance, or was that Wanda messing with her head? (speculation)


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
true enough, but hardly conclusive in and of itself. that was also where wanda was wreaking havoc. i'm just not sure how you can be so seemingly certain that the wave came right from wanda when:


Well Wanda wasn't exactly wreaking havoc, she was only Re-creating that Reality.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
(a) nothing AROUND her was affected by its alleged release yet it 'destroyed universes'


I addressed this above.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
(b) nothing ON PANEL says it CAME from wanda, but rather says it came from 616 where she was AND where she was remaking and tampering with reality


Hey that's what I said.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
(c) even ROMA wasn't certain where it came from. and here it seems to me it would have been easy enough for her to know if it came from one single person as roma et al., are hardly stupid or uninformed beings.


There was a reason behind her ignorance as I said.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
(d) roma (or one of the omniversal gang) wanted to wipe out ALL the 616 to stop it -- not just wanda.


Well only because Roma didn't know exactly where it was coming from except that it did Originate in 616, where Wanda is.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
be clear -- i'm not categorically dismissing your view. just that from ALL the scans i've seen on this issue, it seems there is at least as much (and more imo, which is why i see it differently than you do) 'circumstantial proof' to say the wave was a by-product of her tampering as there is 'circumstantial proof' that the wave came directly from her


Fair enough.


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2006 03:28 AM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Good point, but why would Wanda destroy herself?

I think she subconsciously didn't allow it to wipe out 616 immediately.


And before you jump into, then why was it going to enter 616 in the end:

This is from HOM #1
(please log in to view the image)

The more Wanda Remade the Universe, the less she cared about Reality, because as X says, "she was losing her grip on Reality"

By the time the Wave reached 616, HOM was one issue away from finishing.


was the wave released at the time of that scan? when did readers find out that the wave was actually present? could you tell me what issue? i have hom proper, but not all the xovers i'm afraid . . . i'm also not sure exactly how that scan supports your case. how did you come to the idea that the wave would reach 616 from that scan? were mags and x even AWARE of the wave's existence?

quote:
No, please,

you're a great debater, and you most certainly do not need to succumb to anyone's opinion around here, and to tell you the truth, I like your ideas, speculations, theories and sensible truths.


smile

thanks. the topics you tend to . . . revolve around are interesting and allow for lots of open-ended thought. they're generally fun topics.

quote:
Ey,

I did say "the only HINT we have", I never made anything concrete.


fair 'nuff.

quote:
Roma said, "the localized effects are so severe, I am unable to ascertain the cause"

So there was a reason behind her ignorance, or was that Wanda messing with her head? (speculation)


hmmm . . . maybe. seems like wanda craeted some kind of crazy . . . 'reality storm' for lack of a better term, and roma wasn't able to see through the fog. for that reason, we can't really say for sure HOW the wave came about. i don't think we've seen the last of this whole hom scenario though, so perhaps your idea will be born out in the future. for now, imo either theory is equally valid.

quote:
Well Wanda wasn't exactly wreaking havoc, she was only Re-creating that Reality.


laughing out loud

gotta disagree there, and point to your own quote above: "the localized effects are so severe, I am unable to ascertain the cause"

sounds like she was wreaking a whole LOT of havok to me. big grin

quote:
Fair enough. [/B]


that's all i was after. smile


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2006 01:39 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
was the wave released at the time of that scan? when did readers find out that the wave was actually present? could you tell me what issue?


First time she remakes Reality is at the end of issue #1.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
i have hom proper, but not all the xovers i'm afraid . . . i'm also not sure exactly how that scan supports your case. how did you come to the idea that the wave would reach 616 from that scan? were mags and x even AWARE of the wave's existence?


I'm not saying Mags and X are referring to the Wave, I'm pointing out that as Wanda Remade Reality, over and over again, she cared less about her own Reality (616) because her grip on Reality was less and less.

This suggest to me, (IMO) that Wanda subconsciously didn't allow the Wave to obliterate 616 immediately, otherwise it makes no sense that other Universes fell victim to the Wave, and yet 616 was spared when the Wave originated from 616.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
thanks. the topics you tend to . . . revolve around are interesting and allow for lots of open-ended thought. they're generally fun topics.


touché



quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
hmmm . . . maybe. seems like wanda craeted some kind of crazy . . . 'reality storm' for lack of a better term, and roma wasn't able to see through the fog. for that reason, we can't really say for sure HOW the wave came about. i don't think we've seen the last of this whole hom scenario though, so perhaps your idea will be born out in the future. for now, imo either theory is equally valid.


I'm eagerly awaiting any further info on the matter from Marvel, they have some explaining to do.

Sometimes they PIS all over a story and act as it never happened.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
gotta disagree there, and point to your own quote above: "the localized effects are so severe, I am unable to ascertain the cause"

sounds like she was wreaking a whole LOT of havok to me.


I have to disagree here aswell.

IMO, Roma couldn't see into 616 because of Wanda.

My reason:

Wanda created a beautiful Reality where everyone got their heart's desire, euphoria was everywhere.
Havoc was being spread outside 616, but 616 wasn't in danger till the end of the series.

that's all i was after. smile [/B][/QUOTE]


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Old Post Oct 21st, 2006 07:08 PM
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forgive me for putting my two cents in but thats just stuipd for marvel to make ONE MUTANT strong enough to destroy the omniverse and how can it destroy the omniverse isnt even the real world part of that thats just dumb.

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2006 08:49 AM
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leonidas
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having just read the WHOLE hom series discounting the xovers (up til now i'd only read bits and pieces of a few issues) i find it interesting that nowhere in the series itself (1-8) is the wave even MENTIONED. to me, this just adds to the idea that wanda herself may have been completely unaware of the wave and the omniversal effects of her altering reality. is there a xover issue where she is SHOWN to be aware of the wave? she seemed like she wanted to make everyone happy -- creating the wave is hardly in keeping with that. if it DID emanate from wanda, it seems to me she had no idea. that, or it was a HUGE side-effect of all her re-creations.

reading it over, i was also wondering about the EXTENT of her alterations. wolverine after all was able to see through the world she created on his own. doesn't that say that she didn't REALLY "fundamentally alter" the 616 universe? she seemed to fulfill wishes using prof x as a means of determining those wishes and a strong enough mind (or a screwed up enough mind in wolvie's case) was able to see through her "illusory" creation. had she fundamentally RE-CREATED things, doesn't it follow that all the characters' histories would ACTUALLY have changed? as it stood, it was more like she OVERLAID the TRUE reality with a DREAMWORLD and (again with x's help, presumably) erased/rewrote everyone's memory. impressive still, but for some reason NOT exactly what i was expecting.

more impressive was her globally wiping out the mutant powers, but even there it was hinted that she didn't 'really' just eliminate their powers. those powers seem to exist in someway, somewhere, maybe in a different form? the ending was . . . odd. erm


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Old Post Oct 22nd, 2006 10:45 PM
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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonidas
reading it over, i was also wondering about the EXTENT of her alterations. wolverine after all was able to see through the world she created on his own. doesn't that say that she didn't REALLY "fundamentally alter" the 616 universe?


You read to quickly my friend,

Wolverine didn't see through anything.


The only reason Wolvy was able to see that Reality was Re-arranged, was because Wanda gave all of them thier heart's desire.

What was Wolvy's desire?

To know his PAST, and in knowing his PAST, he realized that the Present had changed "fundamentally"... because well... he remembered the Past.

(please log in to view the image)


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Last edited by Mr Master on Oct 22nd, 2006 at 11:35 PM

Old Post Oct 22nd, 2006 11:33 PM
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leonidas
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
You read to quickly my friend,

Wolverine didn't see through anything.


The only reason Wolvy was able to see that Reality was Re-arranged, was because Wanda gave all of them thier heart's desire.

What was Wolvy's desire?

To know his PAST, and in knowing his PAST, he realized that the Present had changed "fundamentally"... because well... he remembered the Past.

(please log in to view the image)


hmm, that IS an interesting point. did you just put that together or did you read that? wolvie himself states that apparently his 'heart's desire' was to be 'nick fury'.

i like your explanation. i'm just wondering where you came up with it. smile


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