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ESB -1138
Sonic Speed
 Gender: Male
Location: Green Hill Zone |
Dagor Dagorath
Figured since the Final Battle is well talked about that it requires an offical thread:
The Dagor Dagorath, Sindarin for 'Battle of Battles' or 'Final Battle', is an event described in the works of J. R. R. Tolkien. The published Silmarillion ends with the recounting of the voyage of Eärendil the Mariner, but this is due to an editorial decision by Christopher Tolkien. The Silmarillion as J. R. R. Tolkien originally wrote it ends with a prophecy by Mandos about the Dagor Dagorath, often referred to as "The End". The remaining clue to this prophecy is found at the end of Akallabêth, where "Ar-Pharazôn and his mortal warriors who had set foot on Aman were buried by falling hills, imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Last Battle and Day of Doom". The account is clearly inspired by and bears many similarities to the Norse legend of Ragnarok.
According to the prophecy, Morgoth will discover how to break the Door of Night, and will destroy the Sun and the Moon. For the love of these, Eärendil will return from the sky and shall meet Tulkas, Manwë (or Eönwë his herald) and Túrin Turambar on the plains of Valinor. All the Free Peoples of Middle-earth will participate in this final battle, Elves, Men and Dwarves alike. To their number will be added Ar-Pharazôn and the Númenóreans who landed at Aman in 3319 SA
Many fallen enemies shall return to fight on Morgoth's side as well. Sauron, whose ruined spirit fled to the Void after the destruction of the Ring, will be present at Dagor Dagorath. It is said that all types of Morgoth's creations will return, and that orcs, trolls, dragons, and other fearsome creatures will return. It is presumed that the remaining 1 or 2 Balrogs shall fight for him, and it is a desputed fact whether or not Morgoth's slain champions (such as the Nazgul, Ancalagon the Black, Glaurung, and Gothmog Cheiftain of the Balrogs) will return as do Beren and Turin and perhaps Scatha, Smaug, and Durin's Bane. Gandalf at least believes that the Witch-King of Angmar and the others of the Nazgul shall not die but be thrown into the Void with Sauron at the destruction of the One Ring (The Return of the King V: Siege of Gondor). This suggests that if Sauron becomes free of the Void they may also be.
There the forces of the Valar shall fight with Melkor. Tulkas will wrestle with him, but it will be by the hand of Túrin that finally death and destruction will be dealt to Melkor. Túrin will run his black sword Gurthang (Iron of Death) through Melkor's heart, thus avenging the Children of Húrin (Sind: Hîn Húrin), and the Pelori Mountains will be levelled. The three Silmarils will be recovered from the Earth, sea, and sky, and Fëanor's spirit shall be released from the halls of Mandos to give them to Yavanna, who will break them and rekindle the light of the Two Trees. The battle will end and renew Arda's existence: all the Elves shall awaken and the Powers will be young again.
Following this, there will be a Second Music of the Ainur. This song will sing into being a new world. Men will sing it with the Ainur. It is unknown what the fate of the old races, or of the old world, will be in the new one. Even the Ainur do not know anything of the second world or the Second Music. All the Ainur know is that the Second Music will be greater than the First Music.
Christopher Tolkien removed the prophecy from The Silmarillion based on a 1958 version of the Valaquenta wherein his father wrote that none of Mandos' dooms had declared whether the Marring of Arda would ever be repaired (Christopher Tolkien adopted this passage and used it to close the Quenta Silmarillion). Given this removal of the prophecy Christopher apparently assumed that the Dagor Dagorath had been removed as well. He later noted his surprise at finding references to it and a new version (in which Beren also returns from death for the final battle) written after the Valaquenta passage.
It is to be noted thant the published Simarillion has lines that contradict the Second Prophecy of Mandos. Whereas the Second Prophecy explicitly states that the Elves and Valar shall be renewed after Dagor Dagorath and that the fate of Men is unknown, The Silmarillion states that Men will participate in singing the Second music, and that it is the fate of the Elves that is unknown.
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Jul 28th, 2006 08:25 PM |
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The Rover
 Gender: Male
Location: Canada |
Hmm. Interestingly put.
But, as is documented in Vol. XI, Tolkien placed a large X in the LQ 2 typescript with regards to the passages with which you refer.
[Surely by "late" work you are not referencing the work on the Istari given in UT, which must date to about the same time (c.1950-1960)?]
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Sigs are for noobz.
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Jul 29th, 2006 08:19 PM |
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ESB -1138
Sonic Speed
Gender: Male
Location: Green Hill Zone |
I used that as a start up:
Many people here say that Morgoth during the Final Battle is at his greatest power. Is that true?
Melkor is known as the single greatest Valar able to defeat all of them in combat one on one. This is of course before he gave his power to his servants and became dependable on them. I have came to the conclusion of 3 powers of Morgoth.
I.) Melkor before he gave up his power was when Melkor was at his strongest. Before the creation of Arda (The World), Melkor was the most powerful of the Ainur. Like an unusually precocious and arrogant child, Melkor contended with the Creator, Eru, via the Music of the Ainur. Melkor was jealous of his father, and wanted to create and rule other wills himself. He spent a long time looking for the Secret Fire (also called the “Flame Imperishable”).
Unlike his fellow-Ainu Aulë, Melkor was too proud to admit that his creations were simply discoveries wholly made possible by, and therefore “belonging” to, Eru. Instead, Melkor aspired to the level of Eru; the true Creator of all possibilities.
During the Great Music of the Ainur, Melkor attempted to alter the Music and introduce what he believed to be elements purely of his own design. As part of these efforts, he managed to draw many weaker-willed Ainur to him - creating a counter-theme to Eru’s main theme. Ironically, these attempts could not, as he hoped, truly subvert the Music, but rather could only further elaborate and beautify Eru’s original intentions: the Music of Eru took on a depth and beauty precisely because of the strife and sadness Melkor’s disharmonies (and their rectification) introduced.
Since the Great Music of the Ainur stands as template for all of history and all of material creation in the Middle-earth cycle (it was first sung before Time, and then the universe was made in its image), there is an aspect of everything in Middle-earth that comes of Melkor’s meddling – everything has been somewhat polluted.
II.) Melkor (Morgoth) when he gave up his power like during the War of Wrath. At that moment it was clear that Sauron was greater then Morgoth in power. Ungoliant, a dark spirit who took the form of a spider helped Morgoth destroy the Two Trees but Ungoliant turned on Morgoth and overpowered him. Ungoliant might have either slain Melkor (if such a thing was possible) or encaged him in her darkness in the ensuing battle, had not the Balrogs come and saved their master, scourging the spider with their whips and causing Ungoliant to flee to the Ered Gorgoroth in Beleriand.
Morgoth went to Angband and it was said that he never came out of his fortress again for the weight of his crown was too much; expect he came out once to fight Fingolfin. Fingolfin gave Morgoth 7 wounds that could never heal showing again his decrease in power. For it was said that all the Valar could take any form they wanted but Morgoth as well as the Balrogs could not for one reason or another. Morgoth remained in Angband and never came out till the Valar forced him out.
III.) The Final Battle Melkor is when he breaks out of the Door of Night. Now then he is defeated by Túrin. I do not know if it refers to the Man from Dor-lómin but it is clear that Morgoth is slain not by that of a Valar nor Maia. The outcome of this fight is told but the way in which it is played out is unknown. But it is clear that Melkor isn't as strong as he once was.
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Jul 30th, 2006 04:33 AM |
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Rogal Dorn
Mahal
 Gender: Male
Location: Birmingham, United Kingdom |
I believe, or have thought of it in personal opinion that as many if not all of Morgoths old forces are drawn back to him for the final battle then he is of the same power level as he was of old. Not personally as powerful, thus explaining his defeat at the hands of Turin however because his "agents" that he shared his power with are all present then united as Morgoth and all his forces they would of the same power. Although individuals can still fall.
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Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
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Jul 30th, 2006 06:48 PM |
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ESB -1138
Sonic Speed
Gender: Male
Location: Green Hill Zone |
Hmm...good theory but it seems that all of his servants won't be there. It is said that only 1 or 2 Balrogs will be in this conflict and it is unknown if the Balrog King comes. All his agents don't return but most of them do. Gothmog is unknwon or not as well as many of his other champions. Really only Sauron is known to return.
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Jul 30th, 2006 08:08 PM |
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