Vaapad is not inherently better than any other saber style
I've been seeing multiple posters post that vaapad is superior to Juyo, or X, Y, Z styles. OR that it is inherently superior all around, which it is blatantly not.
Is it a state of mind? Sure, so is every other style of combat. Every fighter has his or her own state of mind.
Is drawing off the darkness of the your opponent or of your own self unique to vaapad? No. Not at all.
So tell me why is it so many claim vaapad is the end all of all saber styles?
P.S. Vaapad is not the finished product of Juyo, it is a variant of Juyo, Juyo is its own fighting style altogether.
From what I've seen, the Jedi regard Juyo as incomplete because, to use it properly, one had to open oneself to their inner darkness. Vaapad, however, sort of taps into one’s inner darkness or, as it is usually described, "channels" it freeing the Jedi from the corruption of the dark side that Juyo practitioners usually experience. Furthermore, both the Book of Sith and the Path of the Jedi seem to indicate that Juyo is a "Sith form" and that it's not suitable for a Jedi. So by "completing" the form, Mace made it suitable for the Jedi.
Considering Vaapad and Juyo require higher levels of multiple styles, excluding Makashi, and was only itself mastered by maybe two people, it stands to reason it's exceptionally good.
I understand Juyo uses multiple styles but it does not mean juyo or Vaapad are in any way superior to any other fighting style.
While they focus on multiple styles, a master of a single style or 2 styles could be better or worse. It all comes down to the individual.
Vaapad is different from Juyo, Juyo useres become completely consumed by their inner emotion, Vaapad users do not. They aim to channel their inner "negative/rejected (by jedi ways)" emotions into the light (emotionless), and draw power from it. Additionally they aim to feed off the opponents "Darkness".
However many jedi/sith already do this, they feed on the opponents force, both light and dark in combat.
Schi Cho - Beginner's form. It is what padawans learn. Simplest and easy to learn, but arguably least effective.
Niman - like Schi Cho, very simple and easy to learn. It is what Jedi who don;t have as much time to spend on combat and care more about diplomacy and being negotiators etc learn. Bit more advanced than schi cho but still among the weakest. Is also a required form for use of twin sabers however.
Makashi - Most technical form. Uses discipliens of distancing and timing, footwork and angles, balance and leverage. Great for seeing openings in your opponents guard and elaping in and out. Also good for dealing with an opponent of superior strength. However, with the most physical forms, if the opponent has too big a strenght/speed advantage it can overload your defences.
Soresu - great defencive form. Used to defend yourself at all costs, and tire your opponent out in the process, until they gas and you can take advantage by killing them. Like with Makashi, too big a strenght or speed advanatge though and your defence may be overwhelmed.
These are the physical forms. Djem so/Shien uses speed and power. Ataru uses speed and agility, and aerial movements. Both are about as powerful as each other. Juyo/Vaapad more powerful than both and uses both speed and strength, as well as agility and acrobatics, almost a combination of both. Much harder to master however, as requires mastery of multiple other forms, and also has stron mental and emotional requirements, and requires mastery of lightside. Is also a requirement for double bladed lightsaber, which is even more powerful. Twin sabers about as powerful as double bladed lightsaber.
So bsically:
Weakest - Schi Cho, against all forms.
Seceond weakest - Niman, against all forms.
Makashi and Soresu beat the physical forms usually, but when the opponent is much more physically adept than you are you may get overwhelemed by their athelticism. Makashi beats Soresu.
For the physical forms, the order of strength is: Double-Bladed Lightsaber = Twin Sabers > Vapaad/Juyo > Ataru = Djem So/Shien. Caapad and Djem So are more advanced versions of other form they correspond with.
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I disagree with your labeling of which is weakest and strongest. Juyo focuses heavily on physical aggression and overwhelming your opponent by being faster and stronger, however if your opponent is just as fast or strong, you will just become tired.
Additionally wookiepedia states (I believe its citing the official source for it too) that juyo leaves the practitioner open for Force related attacks, which makes sense.
Niman is not the weakest by any means, it is a melding of forms 1-4, thus Makashi, Soreseru, Niman, shi-cho. That is an extremely powerful form right there, it comes down to the practitioner...of course if they only train lightly they wont do well in combat. Additionally it is noted as being a stance most attuned to those who are powerful in the force, so i take it this style incorporates alot of force attacks in it.
But if they study Niman just as intensely as a Vaapad user, the winner is purely a toss up and dependent on the individuals strength, force power, speed, etc...not style.
Niman's speciality is for fighting multiple opponents at once, and focuses on utilizing sweeps, strokes, and your opponents/surroundings to your advantage.
Schi-Cho is the basics, however a master of the basics is just as dangerous as a master of vaapad. People assume only vaapad users have a state of mind....all fighters have a state of mind. An individual who is a master of the basics, movements, positioning, deflection, is truly scary.
No stance is a low ceiling form of combat, it all depends how far the user takes the philosophy.
However I do agree with you that, regardless of stance, style, philosophy, if your opponent's strength/speed/force power, is just way beyond what yours is...than no amount of superior skill is going to save you (IE Anakin Vs Dooku - Anakin's strength and speed were just so far beyond Dooku, that it overcame his skill, and style).
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Last edited by Board Walker on May 30th, 2012 at 08:11 PM
Sure your average Shii-Cho will lose to your average Juyo user but I'd argue thats not because Juyo is a better form but rather it takes far more practice to use than Shii-Cho which is rather basic. However, one could master Shii-Cho to a degree equal to a Juyo users mastery of Juyo.
This is seen with Exar Kun who has mastered Niman to a degree where he is relatively unparalled in his time. Basically, the form is a lot less important than the user's mastery of said form and the user's speed and strength.
Disagree strongly. Styles make fights, and will sometimes be the deciding factor.
It is made clear that Shi Cho and Niman are the weakest of the lightsaber forms. They are not designed as high level forms, but beginner training and non-combat support.
High level ones are Soresu, Makashi, and the physical forms.
And yes, it is not impossible that a user of Schi Cho could defeat a user of Makashi in a lightsaber fight for example, he can get lucky, makashi guy may only have learnt its basics, and shi cho guy could be much much more powerful physically and with the force. But usually, user of Schi Cho will fall to Makashi and it is because it is not a very advanced form at all and Makashi is probably the best with only a weakness to the physical forms.
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The grammatical quality of your posts has skyrocketed.
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Makashi is based on fencing. It uses distancing and reflex/timing to close distant and get in and out of range efficiently, it uses footwork and angles and rpecision to create and exploit openings in opponents guard, and uses balance and leverage to parry opponent's attacks. This can be used as an answer to the more physical storng fighter with better reach... but technique can never truly make up for overwhelming speed and power, so Makashi can be weak to the more physical forms when against a far greater athlete.
Not always. Makashi will almost always beat Soresu no matter how more ahtletic soresu user is, because soresu does not use physical tools to overpower opponents so makashi will not be overpowered, and because makahsi is also not physical the makashi user will not gas easily either. Soresu weathers the storm, tires the opponent out and then attacks. makahsi is not a storm but a rainbow, it will not tire as it ses technique instead of physicality, and will eventually pick the less technical form apart.
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Re: Vaapad is not inherently better than any other saber style
Agree with you. Style is a style. There are Form I practitioners that are considered among finest swordsmen in Old Republic.
In fact real techniques are coming from Form I and II, the rest is just about tactics during combat, acrobatics and emotional state. Whatever style you learn, during actual combat you learn to defend against anything in most effective way possible, so ultimately during combat it is capabilities and skills that decide outcome, not the style.
Also, Vaapad teaches user to accept fury of opponent (enjoy fight) but in no way it means, that user gets empowered by opponent, it's just a common misinterpretation of wookieepedia source.
Frees from corruption? Out of three practitioners two fell to the darkside. The implication is clear that this Form is more dangerous, than simple Juyo as it makes user to focus on the inner darkness of his personality instead of simply using anger.
Last edited by Arhael on May 31st, 2012 at 12:33 AM
Vaapad is the most technically demanding per multiple sources and Yoda, master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat and warrior of eight centuries, regards it as the deadliest of all.
Is it inherently superior in strict bladework to other forms? Not necessarily, though by its very nature a Vaapad practitioner is more likely to be far more technically skilled than a practitioner of other forms.
Makashi uses some elements of fencing, does it mean it replicates fencing? No hardly at all.
It borrows the concept of using parry and footwork, so does every other form of combat in existence. Fencing isn't a form of combat so much as it is a form of sport.
Makashi has no inherent advantage against Sorseru, nor does any other style have any inherent advantage against another style.
It all depends on what the person trains for, if the person uses Niman and trains just as extensively in blade to blade combat as a makashi user, the makashi user wont have any advantage over him in regards to saber vs saber.
It is the same in MMA, no form of fighting is superior to another, it all comes down to the individual's skill, style, and physical abilities.
Re: Re: Vaapad is not inherently better than any other saber style
If Vaapad is used properly one shouldn't fall to the dark side. As, according to Windu, with Vaapad one skirts the edge of the dark side. If you don't have the proper discipline and control than you can easily fall. Meanwhile, Juyo actively uses the dark side.
Any style that emphasizes dueling with one-hand and using fanciful twirls is going to be inherently vulnerable against styles that utilize brute force, like Djem/So.
It doesn't take an official source to recognize that, it's common sense.
That being said, we see Dooku using a lot of two-handed grip techniques when fighting Anakin in RotS, so it stands to reason that there's more to Makashi than the one-handed gurlyman twirls.
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Last edited by Tzeentch on May 31st, 2012 at 02:45 AM
May 30th, 2012 06:11 PM
