I notice this is perhaps the one Kain thread that hasn't been done yet. There was one before which had Samus and Kain it, but it also had Mewtwo and a few other people. But I digress, this is here now, so the rules be thus:
1. Standard Samus, with no Eleventh Hour weapons or Hypermode, but otherwise all upgrades Vs. Full Power Kain, including spells, weapons, and items.
As I said in the other thread I dont have much patience for anything other than Skyrim with my free time atm but if you want to argue this, please list a couple of the most powerful weapons and an actual cutscene/canon feat for the power of it please.
Also only fledlings are vulnerable to sunlight so light beam is meaningless if thats all it does.
Are you implying that the plasma beam cannot actually vaporize Space Pirates, melt metal and burn robots to molten slag? You certainly seem to be implying it.
Oops hypocrisy.
If you didn't notice, it also sets things on fire and vaporizes them. I highly doubt an older vampire would be immune to a more focused/intense blast of light in any case. Heck, Raziel's Sunlight Glyph still affects adult vampires. The Light Beam would be especially effective, given that it's specifically designed to kill beings of darkness.
Hmmm. Strongest weapons, though? Nah, I think I'll just go with what I expect to be the most problematic for Kain. Well, I suppose we can start with Power Bombs, which is one of her strongest.
He's asking you to not be dishonest and back up everything you say. It's a common courtesy debaters are expected to show to each other; I see no implication regarding anyones capabilities.
Obvs he's not asking for only cutscenes.
Please, I understand that it's okay and probably even encouraged to make fun of BT because he's unpopular, just like how it's perfectly okay in this part of the forum to talk shit about conservatives, religious people and republicans because they're "morally bad people", but can we please keep the kiddo ad hominem to ourselves? At the very least, if you're going to antagonize the guy, do so with an actual valid point.
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"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
Last edited by Tzeentch on Nov 17th, 2011 at 04:16 AM
Yes, and where exactly did I fail to provide evidence before he asked? Seeing as I had already posted several videos of the plasma beam, I'm afraid I felt a little slighted when they were ignored and BT asked for an "actual" cutscene or canon source. In that context, the question, along with the word "actual," implies that the feats I posted are not canon, doesn't it?
If not, I apologize for an overreaction.
I think I do have a valid point, though. I realize I may have responded a bit harshly, and I apologize for that.
EDIT: Whether trolling or not, he's got a point. I'll be getting my **** together now.
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Last edited by The Scenario on Nov 17th, 2011 at 04:52 AM
A lot of your evidence consists of shooting actual enemies within the game though, damage to enemies or how long it takes to destroy them is a hard canon gauge, you would also need to show durability of said machines as well to claim its impressive of course.
Kain, nay any vampire are not exactly "beings of darkness", the only entity Ican think of atm that match that description would be the shadow spirits in LoK. The light may be irrelevent but let me gauge the power bombs and ice things;
The power bomb seems to have a slow charge up, I think it probably has enough heat to get the job done and defeat Kain but the charge up would kill Samus. The ice missles are harder to gauge although their not that quick, I cant see Kain having a problem avoiding them.
As for Kains offense, TK could ruin her looking fairly light, blood powers (we know she has blood this time unlike bowser) and mind powers would be an end to her. She seems to be an easy target and I doubt considering her universe that she has actual resitance to magical powers.
Defence? mist form could be effective against all but the power bomb which creates an actual wave of heat that may dissipate it, missle based weapons would probably pass through it but teleport is probably his best defence. Most of her primary attacks you have shown are not physical based, e.g. kinetic damage and Kain has no resistance to the ice or heat to that degree that I can prove.
Also I like how when I call you out on something you go to the mods to try and get them on your side but when someone else does you comply, its this sort of bias to the person rather than argument that holds these "debates" back.
Out of curiosity, what does Kain have in the way of damage-dealing? Because Samus regularly tanks massive explosions, high-power lasers, and being immersed in magma (following Earth conventions, 1300-2400 degrees F), corrosive acid, and radioactive matter, without physical damage to her suit.
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Kain wont try and damage her suit, he will try and kill her. Spiritually or mentally if he has to, if your specifically asking for physical damage then she can try triple the core pressure of the earth in a square millimeter of her suit, I would say that would turn it into swiss cheese.
That's not what I'm trying to prove, though. All I want you to look at is the effect of the beam. How long it takes to kill the Space Pirate is irrelevant to the fact that the plasma beam can set it on fire, and when it does die it turns to ash. Same deal with the robots; I realize the number of shots it takes is a mechanic but again that's irrelevant when said robot ends up melting into a puddle of molten slag. Then there's the piles of metal Samus melts as well.
Meh. Vampires are weak to light, Ing are weak to light, the Light Beam is designed to exploit this weakness. Even if the target isn't a being of darkness it's still capable of setting them on fire like a weaker version of the plasma beam.
There are a few different versions of the power bomb. The first on I linked is the standard one, can be dropped and takes a few seconds to explode, but has the largest blast radius. The second is the Metroid Prime version, which detonates immediately with no charge up but has a smaller radius. Then there's the Other M version, which has a long charge up time, takes a second to explode, and has a large blast as well as unlimited ammo. The first 2 version Samus is capable of dropping while moving, so she can lay one as she rolls around, which would make her much harder to hit. The Other M version probably would be too slow, but she can charge while rolling, too, and Kain's unlikely to kill her before she pulls it off.
I doubt it, since Samus can fly (Space Jump) she is more than likely able to get out of TK anyway, perhaps even with the Morph Ball. Maybe the Gravity suit could block it, even. Blood Powers I don't see getting past the suit, and mind powers in general don't tend to work on Samus.
Ing a are basically demons. In addition, Dark Samus has a similar mind control ability: http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Pirate_Data
The first few entries show what I mean. And Dark Samus did try to control Samus like this, it's basically the whole plot of Metroid Prime 3 that Samus got corrupted and has to resist the influence. So mind control is pretty much a no-go.
I dont know the heating point of those metals though, its relevent because everything melts at a certain temperature.
No, their burned by sunlight, if Ing are confirmed to only be harmed by sunlight alone then you may have a point, Kain walks around in the day time, light is irrelevent to him.
"unlikely" when he can avoid her through teleportation, throw her like a ball with TK or just one shot her with a spell her suit cant do anything about.
Being able to fly doesnt mean Tk stops working...it just means she can also fly under her own power, but Kain can make her fly under his and throw her around. Blood powers dont touch the suit as for mind powers, since when is a symbiote possession=mind control? or spirit control? Kain has both.
Show me Dark Samus actually doing a mind control, then show me the effectiveness of it, if its useless and has never worked we dont have much basis.
Its feat there is breaking rocks, I cant see a power bomb of that strength doing anything.
Let's see...the robots are called Tinbots, so assuming they are made of tin gives us a melting point of 230 Celsius and a boiling point of 2602 Celsius. Given that it also turns living things to ash it must be pretty hot.
Yes yes, Kain has resistance to normal sunlight. That doesn't necessarily mean he's immune to a more intense blast or standing next to a star. Raziel has a Sunlight Glyph that kills adult vampires despite their immunity. About Ing, I don't actually know if they're vulnerable to normal sunlight. It's hard to explain, but the planet they're on, Aether, doesn't have a sun. Instead, there is the Light of Aether, a probably magical energy source within the planet that serves the purpose of replacing the sun. Scans say it contains solar energy and several other things. It's weird, and it's also what powers the Light Beam.
I say unlikely since Samus can counter Kain TK throwing her in several ways, one of which would be to turn into an actual ball. She can fly, Kain wouldn't be able to hold her still, and in mid air she can go right into a screw attack. What spell, specifically? I can't think of any spell Kain has that could get past Samus' suit. Same with the blood powers, they have no way past the suit.
Since the symbiote controls your mind, obviously.
Dark Samus controlled a significant portion of the Space Pirates and all of Samus' bounty hunter allies. Rundas, Ghor, and Gandrayda became the Commanders of her Space Pirate army. It worked every time it was used, except on Samus.
Fair enough deduction. Although you know Tin is not the most sturdy of metals.
We know hes immune to sunlight, e.g. its nothing to him, its not even a weakness. Why the glyph which is arguably not even canon can destroy them is something specific to the magic of the glyph.
Since when turning into a ball counters TK? please tell me you have a logical explanation why this would make it harder, and not easier for Kain. What is this based on? show me the thrust power of her suit then please. Blood shower, infact, I need proof of Samus' suit having any magical resitance, not sure it would even protect against most of kains powers unless they create physical manifestations like energy blasts or lightning. Thats not evidence of her mind being stronger than w/e is mind contrlling, shes never faced magic of the mind or an actual mind control, the symbiote is trying to possess.
So the only thing I have not seen is Samus resisting it, also this looks like corruption/suggestion especially based on the second one, not her actually puppetering like Kain would do to Samus. Do we actually see her do it?
A guy who can survive far more than rocks wont be destroyed by a bomb whos feat is thus.
Used to be, though. As I recall, Kain used factories to create ridiculous amounts of smoke and block out/weaken Nosgoth's sunlight, specifically to build up resistance.
Well, what's Kain going to do with his TK? Tossing Samus around isn't really going to hinder her, especially given her own fighting style has her flipping and jumping most of the time anyway. Trying to bind her limbs specifically would fail if she has no limbs, and she's perfectly capable of fighting in ball form via copious amounts of explosives. Thrust power of her suit? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wJMs6Zqcxs#t=1m42s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRHw4YaiLgA#t=2m50s
You mean like that?
Blood Shower...don't you need to prove that can go through obstacles in the first place? I don't see any reason to assume magic would automatically go through the armor. It's a suit of armor with a force field held together by willpower and concentration, and it isn't like Samus has never fought supernatural or intangible opponents before.
Heck, her ship has to intercept telepathic messages because she can't receive them herself. I've already shown you an attempted possession fail, too, so that seems pretty good for supernatural resistance.
I suppose you missed Dark Samus puppeteering Rundas. Oh, and when it says "corruption," that's the term for phazon poisoning. Normally, too much phazon just makes you go insane (Samus resisted this, too) but when there's an intelligent force like Dark Samus around it just lets her mind control you. Samus resisted up to 99% corruption level, where most of her body was completely corrupted, yet her mind never faltered. Personally, I don't think Kain has anything on that.
She has killed souls before. Depending on how you choose to define "life-energy," which Metroids eat, that's a yes.
That was in the late era, since then though hes proven he himself can stand in any era in Nosgoth unfazed by light, whether his minions could do the same is unkown.
Well it is because how is she going to aim at him with guns or attack him with bombs if he keeps launching her through the air? No I meant how powerful is the thrust that lets her fly.
It doesnt touch obstacles, blood shower calls the blood to Kain, it doesnt send blood out to the enemies you must be thinking of blood gout where Kain actually fires his own blood. Unless forcefields have stopped blood magic before then thats useless, its not going to stop her blood being torn from her body and her inevitable cardiac arrest and body shut down.
If Kain tries to possess her, maybe but thats amibgious, Kains got possession AND mind powers, if she cant even recieve telepathy then she probably has little to no mental power or resistance, easy game.
Your calling it mind control but now apprently this Dark phazon corrupts and dark Samus seems to just control the corrupted. Your comparing things to Kains sorcery or mental control that are nothing alike. It would be like me using Kains resistance to physical damage to say he can resist being frozen. "nothing on it"? he doesnt use Dark phazon or anything of the like ,he uses sorcery which this confirms is not faced by Samus and so how can she ever resist?
I found this one Phazon on the metroid wiki;
So its nothing to do with actual mind control of any kind, its just corruption, if anything it destroys the mind, not puppeteers it.
Hard to define then isnt it, if its never really compared to the spirit...life energy could be any number of things. So far Kain can kill her with pretty much anything in his arsenal while shes tossed around literally like a ball. Maybe for lulz he will play ball with her for years until she dies of old age (if she can?).
Note the video I posted before, the one where Samus launches a hundred feet upwards and can still shoot. Her fighting style is mostly made up of tossing herself through the air and I doubt Kain really target her moving like that anyway. The thrust that let's Samus fly is her jumps. The Space Jump upgrade lets her do unlimited spin jumps.
See, you're going to need to prove that "doesn't touch obstacles" thing first. You'd need to prove that Kain can still call/influence the blood when there is a substantial obstacle in the way. The force field field blocks demonic possession and telepathy; magic is not much of a stretch given that Samus has fought magic wielding foes before.
Can't receive telepathy, as in telepathic signals cannot directly access her mind.
She usually just scans them. You know, because of the force field and suit in the way. Kain can't access her mind because of this, you realize. He can't control her mind if he can't reach it, and even then her willpower and resistance to such things would make her more or less immune to Kain's mind control.
Dark Samus. Phazon. Dark Samus is made of phazon, but there is no dark phazon. Now that that's out of the way, it is not "corruption" in the way you're using the term. It's not slow, and it's not using temptation or offerings or anything like that. It's a radioactive poison, one that Dark Samus can control you with once its in your system. Resisting that kind of assault does, in fact require some good mental fortitude. They're both mind control, and need a strong will to resist. Same thing, slightly different mechanism.
The evidence shown contradicts it or support it depending on context. That scan is something from the first Metroid Prime, with Space Pirates experimenting with it. The difference being back then there was no Dark Samus controlling it, so the victims simply went insane. Yes, phazon can cause brain damage, but it can also disintegrate things on contact and bind ghosts and spirits to the mortal plane. Point being phazon is a context based, plot based material that just does "whatever." In the specific instance of Space Pirates injecting phazon into their blood or eating phazon mushrooms, yes, it caused brain damage and increased muscle mass. In the specific instance of Dark Samus implanting a phazon "seed of corruption," there is no evidence of brain damage in any of the 4 Hunters. In fact, take another look at the videos I linked you earlier: Rundas was being directly puppeted by Dark Samus, Ghor went after Samus' ship to prevent her from escaping, and Gandrayda set a trap disguised as a Galactic Federation Trooper. Do any of them appear to have any brain damage at all? Aside from suddenly obeying Dark Samus, none of them have reduced faculties at all. Except Rundas, but again: puppet.
No physical form, victim dies without it, compared to an "essence." Sounds suitably soul sucky.
So far, Samus kills Kain with a single shot of the plasma beam, has resistance to or immunity to everything he can dish out, and can kill him as a ball. Samus probably will end up dying of old age, though Kain would'nt be so lucky. (These points are still be discussed in other paragraphs, please don't assume you've you won them.)
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Nov 16th, 2011 10:27 PM
you must be thinking of blood gout where Kain actually fires his own blood. Unless forcefields have stopped blood magic before then thats useless, its not going to stop her blood being torn from her body and her inevitable cardiac arrest and body shut down.
