I thought the Doctor was a universal reality warper. Thats why i put the thunderbolt to even the odds. Jenny Quantum is not there cause she's multiversal. How powerful is the Thunderbolt who is JSA by the way.
The Doctor was also made borderline worthless by a telepath. Shut off access to his powers, back when they were looking for baby Jenny Quantum.
Dunno of any other examples of The Doctor dealing with telepathy(and I never saw anything for the Arab dude who took over from the Dutch smack addict), but if this is valid, then uh, J'Onn can disable the only serious threat on The Authority's side.
Not reality warper. Matter and time manipulator. Different things. Universal might be a stretch as well. There's no doubt he could destroy planets and manipulate larger bodies using some time tricks, but his raw output probably tops off somewhere around planetary.
But unless Thuderbolt stops him, or Flash blitzes him, he can and would turn most of the JLA into cupcakes in the opening seconds of the fight.
What makes you think Jenny Q is multiversal?
Oh dear.
Each Doctor inherits the experiences of the past ones, so there is no experience lag, and all past feats are valid. Habib lacked the drug addiction though, so he was arguably without a significant weakness that Jeroen possessed.
On the telepathy thing, there's a couple bad showings that he has, but also a couple insane telepathic showings. And it's not bad writing, but is consistent with his power set. Basically, if he ha a chance to "think" it, he's a planetary-level telepath...very capable of hanging with or beating J'onn via telepathy. For example, he casually mind-****ed a telepath who had taken control of about 75% of the Earth's population. So if his concentration is cut off telepathically before he grant himself those powers, he's powerless. Otherwise, he's the most powerful telepath in this fight by a lot.
He's much more powerful overall than anyone in this fight, sans perhaps Thunderbolt. And the thought-based powers make him temporarily vulnerable to Flash. So, that said, it's a bit of a coin flip between those three. In a forum fight we'd probably have to favor the JLA duo, though in a comic I think the Doctor is much more ruthless and would end the fight quicker. If Flash hesitates long enough for him to think "shields" or "become a cupcake," Flash is pointless.
It's also worth noting that one version of the Doctor reconstituted his brain after having it partially punched out of his skull, so the blitz may be ineffective as well.
I'm not an AUTHORITY expert, but I did read the first few TPBs and a few specials. I'm aware of the having the past experience, but it generally didn't seem to help Jeroen all that much. And I really only know about the Euro druggie, not the Arab dude.
The storyline where Jenny Sparks died and Jenny Quantum was born was the only time I saw him deal with telepathy, and he was made powerless. He wasn't aware of what was going on until they told him, so I guess that was the "chance to think" you were talking about.
From what I saw, he just didn't seem that dangerous. Very powerful, but not as effective as he should've been, especially in larger scale fights.
You mean that psycho who had been a Doctor before in the 70's or whenever, killed a bunch of people, drank every bottle of Don Periogn(or whatever it is) to celebrate, and then was taken down while drunk, had his powers removed, but in a prison in another dimension, and years later temporarily regained his powers and convinced Earth that Mankind needed to be eliminated after the Jeroen was temporarily dead from an OD? Yeah, that was the only time I saw a Doctor do anything like that. The Euro didn't seem to do anything like that to me, and one of the few times I saw him physically attacked that I can remember(the first LOBO/AUTHORITY crossover; dunno if it's canon or not though, and granted he was an idiot in there, but it still showed him taking physical damage) he didn't do well.
But after reading the first LOBO/AUTHORITY crossover last night, I think the Authority do even worse than I had previously suspected. I dunno if it was canon or not, and granted, Doctor fought like an idiot and some members didn't participate, but they just didn't look good against Lobo. And it seemed like a somewhat bad showing for Lobo, looking at his fight with Midnighter. Several members of the JLA could solo most of the opposing team.
Also, while it's obvious how bad a mismatch it'd be for a Superman/Apollo fight, there's one thing that I want to bring-up here. Apollo's energy projection. At best for Apollo, it'll just annoy Superman. But, since it's solar-based, couldn't it actually boost Superman?
Although there are a couple of wildcards that the OP didn't specify. Do they have access to the Carrier? And are they in a city where Hawksmoor can use his fancier powers? Even if it's "yes" to both, I still side with the JLA, but those would make it a little less of a stomp.
It's explained a couple times, mostly in reference to how each Doctor gets more and more powerful. It has to do with experience with the powers (and proximity to Earth), which have accumulated steadily.
Of course, as with any powerful character, the writers don't have him remember all of his exotic powers at all times. But if they did, they wouldn't have a lot of the same storylines. Jeroen's drug addiction became a popular way to "write him out."
I did a Mythbusters post in the comic book forum on this years ago. There's 2 instances of him being locked out by a telepath, and 4-5 instances of him using telepathy very specifically. He communicates with an entire city's worth of people, floods a man's mind with the anguish of an entire planet, cuts off a telepath's link to 75% of the world's population (then eats him), and a couple other smaller instances.
Suffice it to say, if he didn't have telepathy, those feats wouldn't be remotely possible.
Much more damning to the idea that he doesn't have telepathy is Henry Bendix's explanation of the Doctor's powers. Bendix was one of the 2 that cut him off. And he specifically states that if the Doctor had a chance to form a thought, he could kill Bendix. But Bendix cuts off his focus and thought patterns, so he is unable to do anything.
More on this later. He's by far the most powerful here outside Thunderbolt. Given literally 1-2 seconds of prep time to "think" he could solo the rest for a majority.
Yes, the 70's Doctor.
As for the feat, you're right that it was the only time he reconstituted his brain. But it's the exact same power set. Literally. So we know it's possible. I'll grant that it's not an easy feat to reconcile. But it's there, so meh.
The Lobo arc was not canon, from what I remember. I also remember Jeroen's shooting up and being completely "gone" from drugs (if it's the right one...there are 2 stories involving Lobo), so it's hardly a fair assessment of his potential.
Those aren't wild cards at all. Either the Doctor ends the fight or Thunderbolt ends the Doctor and the JLA roll.
The Doctor can casually walk into the past and kill them all as babies. He can freeze them in place while drinking a soda (an actual feat he performed on Majestic, lest you think it wouldn't work on Superman-level characters). He has turned superhumans into cupcakes, music, flowers, or simply disintegrated them into air, all with simply a thought or gesture. He could telekinetically hold Italy in place before he knew how to use his powers worth a damn. He can walk into the sun or implant debilitating thoughts into your mind by entering your past. He can flood your mind with the memories of an entire race of people. He can grow to the size of a city. He can BFR them to one of a thousand different dimensions. He can create superhumans from scratch (he created a new body for Winter that exactly mimicked his old powers as a low herald-level energy absorber). It was also directly implied that he was Jenny Q's better, which alone carries Trans-level character status with it.
No one in this fight gives him a problem...unless Flash wins with a blitz before he protects himself or Thunderbolt matches his manipulation skills (entirely possible). If neither of those happen, he turns the JLA into an ice-cream flavored symphony and calls it a day.
....
Anyway, JLA wins. Under the stips and default KMC rules, he'd get blitzed.
Actually, I wasn't disputing the telepathic examples you referenced. Merely pointing-out since they disabled him when he was unaware(since he only found-out after they told him), I guess this was what you were talking about him "having to think" for telepathic abilities or defense.
Didn't dispute his power, just pointed-out what I've seen of him, he wasn't very effective. But I did point-out I only read the first few TPBs and a handful of specials.
He also "fixed" his body after Swift uh, I dunno what to call it but hit him and splattered chunks of flesh and his organs all around. Yeah, theoretically any of The Doctors could do this, but it also shows they're pretty physically vulnerable. But you've already admitted this much.
eh I guess I'll have to take your word for it on canon. It wasn't clear either way. As for Jeroen's shooting up, he did earlier in the story, but he didn't seem to be doped-up by the time Lobo got there. He was an idiot there(even though Lobo used weapons to defeat them, he sees Lobo physically take-on Apollo, then Midnighter, and his contribution to the fight is to try and tackle Lobo?), but whether it's canon or not is irrelevant since there's other examples showing he's physically vulnerable.
Since even you say by default here, Doctor gets blitzed, I was figuring he might as well not even be a factor. Seems like if the Carrier's allowed, and if it's in a city, the JLA would have more trouble, but I still don't see them losing if Doctor's taken-out.
Already knew some of those examples, but it almost seems like all of his power he's worthless in this situation. Either he gets blitzed, or Thunderbolt might match him, even a remote chance J'Onn could cut-off his power before he knew it. Not arguing that would happen, just sayin' it could.
Right. It's really who you think would act first. In a forum fight we're obligated to say Flash. In a comic, in character, the Doctor would definitely go for the kill more quickly, so I think the JLA would be in trouble.
Again, only when he doesn't choose to be more durable. Like I said, he's created herald-level beings. There's no doubt whatsoever he could use his powers to make himself effectively invulnerable. It's just, if he's not thinking that, he has standard human durability. So it's kinda all over the map. But saying that Swift cut him in half, which is true enough, isn't enough to say he'd be vulnerable in this fight (except at the very beginning).
....
Not bad though Delta. For a self-admitted non-expert on the Authority, you know a lot about them. I am an expert on them, they're one of the few I can truly say that about and not feel like I'm jumping in too deep, but you didn't have any gigantic lapses in knowledge that made you say outlandish things about them (which I'm used to dealing with on the Authority).
Outside of Jenny Q and the Doctor, though, the JLA has the next 3-4 most powerful people in this fight (the gap between Doctor and Apollo/Angie/Jack is considerable). So it's really all or nothing with the Doctor. Without him here, city or not, Carrier or not, this is a stomp.
I know it's in his power to do it(the psycho Doctor must've been amping his durability to survive in the Sun when Apollo took him there), but has either Jeroen or the Arab dude used the power to do this?
Also, I remember early in the series, Jeroen had turned a bunch of generic Post-Humans they were fighting(massive swarms of them; the storyline where one tries to get back to base as fast as he can, and smashes himself into a force field before he can stop) into I think metal shards, then trees, and it exhausted(but elated) him and he passed-out. Did anything like this happen again? Not that it matters here(if he's not taken-out, I doubt he'd use his power on that scale in this fight), I'm just wondering if there were any similar examples.
Thanks. I do have the first, I think 4, maybe 5 TPBs of the first volume. Also read the first KEV comic, the crossovers with Lobo, and the PLANETARY special, so I'm not CLUELESS, but I only know about their early history. I only saw Jenny Quantum up to her toddler years and know little about the Arab Doctor aside from he exists. Going by Doctor's performance in that, he just didn't seem like he'd be too much of a threat since his effectiveness then was pretty bad compared to just how damn powerful he was. But I figure he probably got better, as well as bigger feats over time. I had mostly stopped reading comics shortly after the comic shop I went to when I started AUTHORITY had closed down(the entire chain was closed, after the owner of the parent company was arrested by the FBI; true story) and have only recently gotten back into it on a serious scale(never COMPLETELY stopped reading, just stopped collecting and occasionally read), but it's mostly been DC I've been catching-up on, do want to catch-up on AUTHORITY though and maybe check-out more WildStorm.
Well, I do remember the JLA having issues against that dude from the Golden Perfect storyline who manipulated his country's earth, so I figure that if they were in a city, Jack's powers would make it more difficult for them even if Doctor's taken-out immediately. Like I said, I'd still see them winning, but it'd be more difficult.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any durability amping specifically. Brawling's not usually his thing. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. And the memories thing means that it's in their repertoire. I realize it's not intuitive for comics, but the writers are somewhat explicit on memory inheritance of all Doctors.
In that first arc, they made a big deal out of him coming to terms with his new powers, so he definitely wasn't using them effectively yet. Since then, no, he's never passed out from power usage, though of course there's the occasional struggle with a difficult task.
But you're right, it wouldn't take output at that level to beat most of the JLA.
Shame about Wildstorm closing shop. It's not the same in the DCnU.
Yeah, I know it's possible. No question about that, if a previous Doctor did it, any future should be able to. But the question is, is it in his STYLE? Just like almost any Green Lantern could create powered armor construct to boost strength and durability, it doesn't mean they will. Though on a related note, even if brawling's not his style, I'd think it'd be smart to normally have a superhumanly durable body, just to be safe. That'd what I would do. But I'm not The Doctor.
Thanks. I was just curious, since even if he still had issues like that, I doubt it'd come into play with a comparatively small scale battle.
Yeah, it is. I hadn't read much aside from AUTHORITY, but what I did read beyond that, I just didn't see WildStorm characters meshing well with the main-stream DCU, even aside from it being overly violent by comparison. I like the idea better of it being a separate Earth and the characters could crossover. But alas, that's not the case with the DCnU. Which, I actually haven't read much of yet.
Oh, and if you were impressed by my knowledge for admitting I'm not an expert, this might surprise you a little more. I'm basically going off memory for AUTHORITY. Aside from the Lobo crossovers(which I read late last night), I haven't read any of my AUTHORITY collection in at least 5 years.
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Jun 13th, 2012 05:39 AM
