I still say Mistress Death. People keep forgetting that when that ridiculous showing took place the writer had some strange cosmology ideas. Order and Chaos were the major abstracts of their own distinct universe totally separate from 616 reality. Galactus had no alternate selves and was unique in "this or any other universe". Etc....
Nowadays Order/Chaos are abstracts below the Big Four : Eternity/Infinity/Death/Oblivion. Hell the IB hangs with the Elders of the Universe and Stranger! Also, aside from that one stupendous showing by the IB, what's he really done? Keep in mind later on during the Thanos Quest arc, Death's pet aka Thanos was MATCHING (or attempting to match) the IB's energy output to break him out of his prison.
What have IB or Order/Chaos done to put them in a non-jobbing Death's league? Grandmaster with Her power created five null bombs each capable of wiping out 1/5 of the universe. This wasn't hyperbole as one went off and a 1/5 of the universe was wiped out. He, with her power, was also commanding an army of the dead which included Korvac (and Korvac like the others was completely under Grandmaster's control).
Death wiped out the entire Cancerverse, crippled the Many Angled Ones, and annihilated the Cancerverse forces in 616 reality which included the Galactus Engine (the same thing that took multiple Celestials, Galactus, and T&A to restrain). Remember a supposedly hungry Galactus, just recently healed by Order/Chaos, was fighting the IB to a near stalemate until they drifted near a black hole.
And then there's this, which took place AFTER the events concerning Death/IB in that Silver Surfer arc : (please log in to view the image)
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... Also, on panel, Chaos/Order were depicted as obeying Eternity/Infinity,
and literally noted as being beneath them.
Therefore, since Death/Oblivion are = to Eternity/Infinity: (rogue writers sometimes confuse this)
though yes, i agree that chaos/order are below death, for instance in IG (when they attacked thanos) they were regarded as being eternity's "foot soldiers".
so it's generally established that chaos and order are below the 4 cornerstone abstracts.
Please note that Death was considered as one of Eternty's "footsoldiers" as well during the IG arc...
In addition, Order and Chaos lack the quantity of showings that some of the other abstracts have (like Death and Eternity), but I can say this: Order and Chaos have never been defeated (atleast to my limited knowledge) by anything less that the complete Infinity Gauntlet...
Neither Death (who has been bested by Grandmaster) or Eternity (who jobs at an alarming rate considering how powerful he/she/it is supposed to be) can say the same...
You know, logically, Death should be far, far, far beneath Order and Chaos...
Most of the universe is devoid of life due to lack of metals or an excess of energetic events; each galaxies galactic habitual zone only consitutes a small ring between the metal poor outer reaches and the too energetic inner areas...
Death can only be present where there is life, and since life is almost nowhere (when looking at the universe as a whole), Death is almost nowhere as well...
Order and Chaos, on the other hand, have a hand in every single event that goes on in the universe...no matter how minute or grand...either Order or Chaos (and most of the time its both of them) have something to do with it.
Order and Chaos are true universal forces; life and death or not...
Logically speaking, Death should be an extremely minor abstract compared to the truly universal forces that are Order and Chaos...
Of course comics are typically illogical, so Death is depicated as a far greater force than it really should be...
Death win this with ease. Death is outside of the influence of Order and Chaos, and therefore they would have no power over Death. However the same can not be said about Master Order, and Lord Chaos in terms of being nullified, or outright destroyed. Which I will take as being dead.
Shouldnt Order and Chaos be outside of the realm of Death instead?
How can you "kill" them without erasing the universe? The only way I could see them dying is to eliminate every single chaotic and ordered process in the universe...and the only way I can see that happening would be to completely erase the universe.
Doing this would (should...logically that is) eliminate every single abstract in existance as well...
Look at it like this; Death is dependant on ordered and chaotic processes occuring in order to facilitate her position...right?
The opposite is not true; Order and Chaos will go on wether life and death is present or not...
In other words, Death needs Order and Chaos...but Order and Chaos dont need Death.
not sure I'm on board with this one, for a few reasons.
First- the original "trinity" was Death and Eternity, with Galactus as some kind of intermediary. everyone else was added on afterwards in various retcons. That doesn't necessarily make them "lower", but different. The heirarchy is constantly in a state of flux.
Galactus has been significantly powered down and loses constantly, but all three have had some fairly terrible showings against beings far less powerful than Order and Chaos. Eternity in particular has been blown up more times than I can count, and was even wrestled into submission(!) once by the Ancient One who taught Dr. Strange. Death has been said to "flee" from the death god Walker as well as Amatsu-Mikaboshi (sorta). O&C especially combined should be more powerful than both.
Also- The abstracts are just that. abstract concepts. They can't be "killed" without eliminating their "concepts" entirely. (as implied by secret wars and the cancerverse. "death" being killed or banned meant nothing could die, ever. Order or Chaos being killed means Order and/or Chaos ceases to exist)
Death is powerful, but not powerful enough to wipe out the concept of "order" or "chaos" entirely, much less both. Killing or destroying them is out of the question. This is pretty much the case for every abstract except for the tribunal, who is a special case. (it's been said there is only one of him, he's a unique being and not an abstract using m-bodies.)
now, could death eliminate the M-body that Order and Chaos happen to be using at the time? sure, it's possible- but how powerful that M-body is, is totally random. If it's destroyed, O&C can simply make another that's stronger and return. Death also uses M-bodies when appearing within 616 or elsewhere as well. Combat between the two would simply be an endless exercise in destroying M-bodies, and with technically infinite power on all sides this fight is a stalemate for pretty much all eternity.
"Order is imposed without ... the unyielding implacable order of Death itself"
These may be alternates from Reality-82432,
but it shows that Death doesn't need her native universe to exist,
while Order/Chaos had no escape from their native reality,
and evidently their "dead" consciousness ends up belonging to Death.
Death also survived Thanos' absorption frenzy which erased all space-time.
(again, signifying she's disconnected)
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Last edited by Mr Master on Aug 31st, 2013 at 03:02 AM
there isn't much to argue here since zop already posted the scan from quasar #25 that confirms death is one of the 4 cornerstones of the universe - the four most powerful abstracts, and a recent handbook confirms this:
though chaos/order do have a very essential role, they're the ones who balance eternity, and it was even stated that without them eternity could not exist (what if #32).
This is what I was getting at. I was talking about the M-bodies that they inhabit, because they are only a representation of Order, and Chaos. Still though, when Thanos destroyed everything in the multiverse, Order and Chaos no longer existed, the Tribunal was even erased. Only Death remained.
^they're equals, they balance each other. If anything, i can also say: Beyonder was confirmed to be below eternity, yet he was able to erase the concept of death from the entire multiverse (something which was never retconned). thus:
Eternity > Death.
but we know that there are many inconsistencies (same thing with chaos king being the void against which eternity is defined, yet at the same time he is but an aspect of oblivion)
and just because one abstract can't kill the other, doesn't mean that it isn't more powerful.
Death however, was also shown to be able to outright kill an abstract (the rot), along with thanos in avengers: celestial quest #8, when she released her power:
btw, death has a habit of fleeing rather than engaging in a direct battle, regardless whether she can overpower her opponent or not (same thing happened with inbetweener).
Chaos/order don't have as many low showings as eternity, but that's only due to the fact that they don't appear as much.
4 cornerstone abstracts > all other abstracts.
Just clarifying things a bit since i didn't have time to make a thorough reply in my previous post.
You are referring to the statement Molecule Man made in that issue of the Fantastic Four when he and Beyonder merged into a Cube? Well that statement makes no sense when you consider the following.
You are correct that Beyonder killed Death and the event was never retconned. BUT, you are also forgetting to mention that the mighty of the Multiverse were there and that included : Celestials, Orfer/Chaos, Inbetweener, Uatu, Eternity, AND the Living Tribunal. But all of them combined couldn't stop Beyonder or undo the damage he did! This was also NEVER retconned!
Behold the Handbook confirmation of the scene (LT's Handbook entry in the All New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #4): (please log in to view the image)
Behold later (as compared to the FF issue MM made his statement in and SWII 6) ON PANEL confirmation of the scene (Quasar #38): (please log in to view the image)
The Handbook entry AND the on panel evidence confirming it took place years after Molecule Man made that statement about Cube Beings being less powerful than Eternity or the LT. So MM was either misinformed or that statement has been retconned by on panel evidence backed up by the Handbook entry.
Using the Beyonder/Death example + MM's FF statement as proof Eternity > Death makes no sense since according to that NEVER RETCONNED scene, Beyonder >>>>>>>>>>>>>>all those assembled powers because they couldn't stop him or undo the damage he wrecked.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
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Aug 29th, 2013 04:49 AM
... Also, on panel, Chaos/Order were depicted as obeying Eternity/Infinity,
