Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
They don't apply at all though, lol.
Sidious doesn't have 13 centuries of his power multiplying at ever-increasing rates after already being made far more powerful than Nihilus by Nathema. That's not even including Ziost.
Sheev has nothing.
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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
It's probably the strongest scaling in the mythos tbfh. Nihilus has godly TK/willpower feats, that he's so far beneath prime Tenebrae is irreconcilable with any Sheev argument you can try to make.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
btw if we’re going to seriously take some vague IU prose about Vitiate becoming more powerful than Meetra could imagine blah blah blah as a literal power ranking over beings she could imagine then checkmate, Dooku says Sidious is beyond power man.
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Registered: Aug 2014
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It isn't vague in-universe prose, it's backed up by the facts that:
1.it coincides with Nathema's void being far more overwhelming than Malachor V, Nihilus being a symptom of Malachor V.
2.Tenebrae is literally the void, said void's existence being dependent on his.
3.Kreia herself makes it clear that Nihilus isn't the superpower that Meetra has to worry about. The real superpower is later confirmed to be Vitiate.
4.Vitiate has numerous proclamations stating he's the GOAT of the era. We just don't know when he became that. The novel clarifies that for us.
Understood?
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Nihilus grew far more powerful after Malachor, and Nathema largely went into extending Vitiate’s lifespan. None of this establishes that post-Nathema Vitiate > Nihilus.
Meanwhile, Vitiate is a sith regardless of what games you want to play, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord in history. He’s also unbalancing the entire cosmic force, so i guess he’s far more overwhelming than Nathema or Malachor by a similar line of reasoning for your own.
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Yes, but that hardly negates the strength of Malachor V which is stated to echo out across space. Nihilus' hunger is symptomatic of his exposure to the planet. It has the same effects on people as he does.
The Nathema Ritual isn't relevant at all, the void of the Force would literally kill anything and absorb it given enough exposure. You had to will yourself to continue existing or be absorbed by the void. The void literally existed as the absence of the Force, which completely negated the Force's will. Or rather, Tenebrae was doing so effortlessly by existing. Ziost's the same.
Tenebrae ceased to be a Sith centuries ago. As he found Valkorion long before the game and perhaps even the novel, assuming his new identity as he shed Sith dogma. Not that any of the Sheev = most powerful quotes are infallible in the first place.
Oh and Sheev being so powerful is because of the imbalance, a feat achieved under circumstamces that render it irrelevant to either Sith involved. That Plagueis was utterly incapable of replicating Tenebrous' power until after said imbalance occurred indicates that Tenebrous was as strong as the Banite line was going to get. Plagueis wouldn't have surpassed him, Sidious wouldn't have either. What's even more condemning for the two is the outright statement that the Son's descent to the dark-side made the Sith more powerful.
So please tell me more about how the imbalance is some extremely impressive feat for Sheev, when it isn't even really true. It's not even true to say it is all him either, given Lucas specifically states Vader is in the equation of the imbalance and it's further arguable that his shift to the light side is what brings back balance to the Force.
When Sheev returns in DE, there's nothing like an imbalance going on, there's no indication that his mere presence shifts the balance. It's almost as if he's not literally causing the imbalance but is one of numerous factors involved.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Alright just for the heck of it let's get into this again:
Sidious by AOTC is already the "greatest master of evil ever to use sith power". This pretty indisputably includes Vitiate regardless of whether he's a sith or not. But I guess you could try to claim that this is really talking about political power or swagger or something, even though it explicitly references his dark side abilities.
Then Sidious is the most powerful sith lord in history by as early as TPM, and certainly by RotS. Vitiate is clearly a sith given that he's the Sith Emperor and called a sith by multiple sources.
But let's say you either don't think Vitiate is a sith or believe in "death of the author" or whatever. Well, this doesn't work since the Plagueis novel clearly depicts Plagueis as the most powerful sith who ever lived to his point - the blurb says it, Plagueis and Sidious both note it, the theme clearly portrays it, and the book identifies Vitiate as the Sith Emperor. But maybe you don't buy that either.
Let's talk about unbalancing. The "shrine" quote of yours comes from a source that weirdly mixes canon and legends and if you want to use it, we might as well use the Bane > Vitiate canon/legends hybrid quote as well. Nor can politics explain jack when the key milestones in the unbalancing are directly preceded by moments in the Force, not obvious political events. You can't argue that Sidious had an easier starting position either because Plagueis seems to indicate that the dark side was stronger back in the ancients' days before Plagueis and Sidious tipped the balance, which makes sense given that the Jedi Order had created a light-side bubble themselves. So Sidious and Plagueis, and later Sidious alone, affect a level of unbalance on the cosmic force to a scale far surpassing anything we've seen before them. It's an astronomically more impressive feat than anything Vitiate has done, and your own reasoning is that Vitiate > Nihilus because Nathema > Malachor, yet the unbalancing >>>>> Nathema.
Does it prove Sidious is above Vitiate? I guess not, but it's certainly a very substantial piece of evidence in Sidious's favor, in combination with multiple direct quotes indicating his superiority. Vitiate never demonstrated that scale of power - it's not enough to say "he never tried" because nothing he's actually successfully pulled off comes close. And this is Revan anyway, who is pretty solidly below Vitiate given that it's implied Revan + the entire strike team wouldn't even stand a chance against him. Oh, and Sidious has far better dueling feats.
This is also all assuming that you have a massive enough gap between RotS and Dark Times Sidious that the latter's insane feats (e.g. Byss, Lusankya) can't be used to approximate RotS Sidious's power.
So what does Vitiate (I'm not even focusing on Revan at this point) have to compare? As discussed previously, his scaling over Nihilus also applies to Sidious, and you haven't established that Nathema immediately put him over. What feats does he have to match up to Sidious? Bonus points if they don't involve nexuses or rituals. I suppose you could try to say Ziost, but there's actually no solid proof that spirit Vitiate + Ziost nexus < base Vitiate off-nexus, and even if that were the case Sidious scales substantially above Nihilus anyway.
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Registered: Aug 2014
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"Greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power."
If only Tenebrae only used Sith power.
"TPM Sidious = GOAT."
If only this was stated in a Legends source and not a Canon one.
"Vitiate is clearly a Sith."
Yeah, the identity he used to rise to power was. Tenebrae was retconned into having never been an actual Sith at all by the people who actually wrote the story.
"Plagueis is GOAT."
According to a subjective blurb. If you want to rely on theme, the book works against your argument just as easily.
"POD Bane > Vitiate quote."
Yeah, that doesn't really work. Because:
1.It was proven on day one that it literally can't be true.
2.Common fvcking sense.
3.Force and Destiny: Nexus of Power is not the only time in Legends that the shrine is even mentioned. Or does NJO not exist anymore?
"Force imbalance."
Yeah, there are a whole freight train's worth of problems with that argument. Half of which I pointed it out in the last post.
But yeah, Tenebrae's death causing a shockwave through the Force that could knock out telepaths as strong as Satele Shan, as well as literally causing entire planets to exist as deadspots in the Force, which are immediately rejuvenated upon aforementioned death.
Tenebrae's presence in the Force being constantly felt by the Sith for their entire lives, regardless of form or state, shows an immense degree of power. Tenebrae being so vastly above the Dread Masters, whose powers can stretch across space and casually turn entire planets into hellacious hellscapes whilst driving over a trillion incurably insane. The whole fact that Tenebrae has so many feats being done simultaneously on such great scales and against such immense powerhouses as Sel-Makor, Vaylin, Revan and the Dread Masters. That's all more than enough.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Once again AP convinces KMC members that TOR indeed has no case beyond these hilariously bad arguements. Why it still posts here is beyond me, given how even AP’s fellow TOR wankers think it sucks both as a person and a debater.
Sep 15th, 2018 04:52 AM
