I'm done spamming up threads with this discussion. So I'm taking this debate here.
Jinzin argues that scans of people dodging bullets and lasers can be proof that they have combat speed superior to bullet speed (FTB combat/reflex speed) and laser speed (FTL combat/reflex speed) even when it's not concretely shown that they didn't move befre the projectile was fired.
In other words, a scan like this suggests that Wolverine actually dodged a FTL ray-blast:
I argue that such scans do not show the level of combat speed superior to bullet speed and laser speed UNLESS the scan portrays outright that the character was not in a position to evade or defend when the projectile was actually fired. Because otherwise the character simply could have evaded/defended before the projectile was fired through the telegraphing of aim or moving around so quickly that the attacker couldn't achieve proper aim.
This is a battlezone suggested by me and posed to jinzin several times. We've argued over several posts over this premise to the point of derailing a thread. He has not accepted this battlezone yet. Other people can comment if they want, but the main discussion is between jinzin and I, if he cares to accept this challenge. I'd have waited for him to formally accept, but he conveniently has not answered my several requests to bring the issue to a battlezone, so I'll make it easier by just opening the thread. Since I challenged, jinzin can have the opening post.
Jinzin: Begin if you feel your argument has merit.
^ People can throw in their vote when we're done posting. Unless jinzin objects to it and wants to maintain choice of judges or limit the maximum number. As for me, anybody can be judges and I don't care to limit how many judges there are. Just vote when we're done, give a succinct explanation for your vote and we'll tally. Also limit your decision based on the posts that we provide.
Ughhh you're COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTING my argument in the previous thread. AND yours......
My argument is that bullet and laser dodging and blocking feats are not always due to "aim dodging" and that a number of feats HAVE to be done without the ability to aim gauge as evident in the scan that you posted. Furthermore that a character does not have to be in a static position once the weapon is fired to prove that they were moving as fast as the projectile itself.
As for whether or not these types of feats prove FTL reaction speeds? It's a slippery slope of an argument. I would say that characters reacting to ray guns and lasers and bullets fast enough to counteract them should indicate how fast they were moving in the given feat but that such feats SHOULDN'T be even capable by most characters. Again, the only reason why these stupid feat wars are even brought up in the first place is to debunk the idea that one character is way faster than another when they both clearly operate within the same levels of speed (i.e. Thor and Wolverine in h2h combat).
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
^ Whether or not I laid out your argument clearly is something you can remedy in your own opening post. So go ahead and state your position and start the debate.
My position is clear: Unless a scan shows that a person hasn't yet moved at the moment the projectile is fired, it's unreasonable to suggest that the character exhibited FTB or FTL speed by mere result of having successfully dodged or defended the projectile.
They could have anticipated trajectory or telegraphed aim or several other reasonable explanations for having successsfuly evaded or defended the projectile. We obviously differ enough and you obviously argue that a number of feats have to be done with FTB or FTL speed even if we don't clearly see the projectile being fired before the character has a chance to react. So argue that. Start with your opening post any way you want. I'd suggest either laying out a general thesis or we can argue about how to reasonably interpret certain scans. I don't care. I'm not spamming any other threads with this discussion.
Yyyyyeah I already clarified my position thanks for keeping up....
I think your position's illogical as moving when an object like a bullet or laser is fired and successfully evading it is ALSO a demonstration of that level of speed unless the person was already out of the way before the shot fired off.
And once again not every feat is subject to aim gauging because a lot of them are simply implausible to even do that (i.e. back is turned towards the attacker).
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
^ Show me a scan where a person has only just started moving right when the projectile is fired and you'd have a point. Post an example to help us start where you think it's clearly evidence of FTB or FTL reflexes and I'll see if I agree or not.
Show the feats where the back is turned such that telegraphing the shots and anticipating trajectory is completely impossible. We can start there as well.
A body in motion with a high quality sensory array [organic or inorganic ] & Tactical Maneuverability can consistently outperform an aggressor with ftb/ ftl speed.
When the target is stationary the ftb/ ftl claim has merit.
Even so There is a caveat
Example: Dr Light teleportation, ftb and ftl Is known to mentally f*(k With heroes and will .s . e . e . m . i . n . g . l . y. attack in a ftl manner to spook the hero for lulz.
Classic Villain toying with hero syndrome. It generates many false ftb/ ftl speed feats.
^ shiv: To preface, I am not precluding comments like this in this thread. I explicitly invited them in my opening post. But because you clearly have a pre-conceived position on this issue, I reserve the right to set aside your vote (as I'm sure jinzin would) and place it, and others like it, in a separate "general forum consensus vote." The comment is appreciated, as are others, because they can help guide how we present our respective positions. But I don't think voters with preconceived notions should count as "official" battlezone judges. My two cents.
Jinzin: You don't have to post a deluge of scans. Just pick out one or three. I know you presented a few in another thread for that exact proposition, but I'm going to wait a lil while to give you a chance to lead the discussion and refine your position. If you don't respond, I'll just pick those up from the other thread and begin.
For a moment there I considered constructing a Time Machine to retroactively post a fuzzy/unclear knee-jerk vote.. with a couple of smileys and a coin-toss thrown in for good measure
These feats clearly show Wolverine's back is turned towards his attacker/s and yet somehow he manages, to evade the incoming fire it can't be by aim gauging as you think... The same way the previous laser evading feat couldn't possibly be applied with aim gauging either so aim gauging alone can't account for his ability to evade hundreds of bullets, or dozens of lasers or even two bullets as he's sitting in a chair.
His speed FOR the purpose of those feats must match or exceed what he's evading.
Now since you feel so inclined to drag this on let me remind you that the only reason this burdon of proof has been placed upon me was because you thought Thor has FTL reaction speeds to begin with......
because of this:
Please prove that Telepathic energy bolts move at light speed.
And,
that Thor's reaction speed is > an instantaneous result... because as I recall, that's what you argued.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Aim gauging is only one reasonable explanation for avoiding getting hit by bullets or lasers. The other reasonable explanation is telegraphing. And here, in both of those scans, the leader of each group of gunmen literally announces the authorization and gives Wolverine advance notice that they are about to attack. Therefore, there is a space in time between a) the leader authorizing the attack and b) the men discharging bullets. Wolverine can and most reasonably did use that space of time to jump out of the way of their aim. Because Wolverine could very reasonably guess that they are aiming at his back.(please log in to view the image)
This is completely off-topic. We can address this at another time. It's a completely separate argument on completely separate grounds.
Address the issue at hand and address your position and my position on that issue. My rebuttal to your scans is that Wolverine was aware of his attackers because they announced their intentions before firing and thus it's not shown on-panel that Wolverine only started to move at the prescise moment they fired or after the moment they fired. A much more reasonable interpretation is that he used his agility to jump out of the way a split-second after he heard the leaders' order, before the henchmen started shooting. Not only is it more reasonable, there is absolutely no proof we see on-panel that Wolverine waited til they started firing or after they started firing to make his move.
Is it just me or does Logan have xtra special senses.
like hearing smell.
With his eyes stabbed out Logan could tell instantaneously how many guns are pointed at him and what kind of charges are in them energy/or standard munitions [he never does forget a scent.]
^ that there is an inflexible pre conceived opinion grounded in denial
If your take on this debate is that only reasonable explanations can be applied to Wolverine dodging projectiles then you've already assumed the counter position has no credible defense and posing an illigitimate argument from the start.
We know that Wolverine had his back to his attackers and his attackers fired on where Wolverine was. One of those even shows the midair cigar for reference to his speed... Wolverine necessarily could not aim gauge with his back turned towards multiple attackers. He just had to be faster than their trigger fingers and the bullets thereafter to move from point A to point B and the range that he moved was multiples times that of the Cap feat you posted in the previous thread... You think his speed isn't bullet relative? lol, how?
And again, what's your explanation for him dodging tons of lazers in the dark from every direction? Stating he can dodge a bullet? Sidestepping a bullet it bullet-time? or being stated to be dodging bullets by Daredevil? or being stated as dodging rays by the narrative?
As for the telepathy scan: We know TP works at the speed of thought (and the scan is innacurate as thought doesn't work at light speed technically. Electrical impulses in the brain may, but it takes about .02 seconds to process a thought). We also know that Betsy can manipulate matter at the speed of thought using TP, but that didn't prove what I asked you to prove which is AFTER that matter has been manipulated and physically manifested into a bolt like the one pheonix used.... how fast does it travel?
Because you were pretty convinced that it was an instantaneous result BUT that Thor could block it anyway... which is VERY = to WTF.
And no I'm not going to drop this. You felt the need to push me into this thread and this is almost entirely the reason for why so perhaps you can prove your position and I'll prove mine.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
how does having the ability to sense hearbeats and gun powder help his ability to calculate where every attacker is AIMING?
It's not an opinion. Onedumb likened aim gauging to how it was portrayed in Elektra which proposed that she had to see the gun's aim and how the shot was telegraphed to evade the bullet. Wolverine couldn't do anything from his position like that. Once again, he just had to be faster than incoming fire from point a to point b.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
No. My position is that unless the scan concretely shows that a character has not initiated his evasion/defense against a projectile at the precise moment of discharge or after the precise moment of discharge, then that is not proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. Because it's more reasonable to interpret such scans as anticipation, telegraphing, attacker simply missing, etc.
No. It is more arguable that in the dark, Wolverine's body was out of the way of the bullets and his arm which flicked the cigar/lighter/match was near the spot where the trail of smoke was left behind. It's not concrete proof at all that Wolverine's body (the target) wasn't already moving within the space of time that the leader issued the attack order. The demonstrated speed is only relative to how quickly the minions could discharge their bullets pursuant to the leader's order, it's not relative to how fast Wolverine was at the precise moment the bullets were discharged or after that moment.These scans:
These scans show Wolverine noticing that he's tripped defensive mechanisms before they start firing. When they initially start fighting, he actually gets hit by lasers. After he processes the situation, he stays "two steps ahead of the laser blasts" to avoid them further. How could you possibly suggest that this scan is evidence of FTL reflexes? By him getting hit? By him planning two steps ahead of the laser blasts? Are you joking?Don't derail the battlezone. The next time you do, I'm holding it against you for the proposition that you can't muster any support for your position in this narrowly defined battlezone and wish to divert attention. Stick to the battlezone issue.
None of the preliminary scans concretely show that Wolverine only moved at the precise moment the bullets were dicharged or after the bullets were discharged. The laser scan works against you, since after noticing the defense mechanisms, Logan actually gets tagged and states outright that he's planning ahead and using anticipation to dodge the rest of the lasers. Ironically, that scan supports my position, that Wolverine telegraphs and doesn't use FTL reflexes, not your position. Post more scans or try to rehabilitate your position. Don't go off-topic again.
shiv: I invited people to comment. Not engage in a back-and-forth debate with either of us. Please refrain from forcing jinzin to respond directly to you and divert his attention to the battlezone at hand.
Did both people agree to this beforehand, or did OneDumb just make it? Also, normally a 3rd party source starts the thread, rather than allowing one of the contestants to establish parameters and such, which could be biased.
KMC Community Forums
May 24th, 2009 04:45 PM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
