hmm..i can't seem to get you to listen ...it's not that complicated.
it doesn't matter which ideology he followed (whether he started it or not). what makes you evil is your way of thinking...he acted on evil thought principles.
i know the history, lb..and i wonder why do you think there is anything he could have done to justify or in any way compensate for the genocide he's responsable for.
The race superioritu/inferiority concept he had makes him evil.
awh...it's disappointing of you ...read the damn line propperly.
out of the three options i presented about how stalin COULD be you picked the one most suitable for a counter-argument.
i speciffically said he MIGHT be a bad leader OR EVIL.
read carefully...
I dont understand you Dexx....why are you singeling out ONE or TWO people which you say are evil? I dont understand why?
Have I ever tried to justify his actions? No, I actually did not, i am trying to understand what is it that makes you so sure that this one man was EVIL not just overly ambicious and mentaly unstable??
__________________
في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
because we were talking about hitler...
stalin was just an attempt of an argument from you. no need to cmpare hitler with anyone to say he was evil. stalin is a different case.
Number one, look at my very first post in this thread. I didnt only mention Hitler. Ush, continued onto Hitler.
Secondly, please enlighten me as to how exactly is Stalin different case?
Thirdly, all leaders killed a shit lot of people, tell me one witch hasnt.
And lastly, on topic, my argument is that there are no evil ideas, since thats what this topic is all about. There are mental cases, there are overly ambicious people...but evil ideas...i dont believe so.
One man's food is other man's poison!
__________________
في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
i didn't blame you for continuing with hitler..so i don't why why you'd mention who did. irrelevant anyway..because i'll stop mentioning hitler after this psot, seeing it is pointless.
a leader who didn't kill a shit load of people? are you serious?
all leaders kill people?..that's just childish and i won't bother to comment on it.
as for belief on evil ideas..i doubt you really think that way, and i think you're now only going with the flow of what you originally said...but that's just me. i might be wrong..
Yes you are wrong. Very wrong. I believed that there are 'evil' ideas, about 4 years ago....since then, i spoke with few proffessors of mine (psychology and sociology) and i got to release certain things.
I know exactly what im talking about, and please dont tell me what i think, or dont think.
You didnt answer my second question either.
People are slefish by nature...its how we are. WE do whats neccessary for ourself.
You're view on this is black and white, which again, world isnt. You dont have ''evil'' and ''good'' people, thats utter bullshit.
__________________
في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
not all people are selfish. some are...and together with a few other traits, (greed, envy, vengeance, etc.) one MIGHT consider someone evil....ofcourse, that criteria of apprechiation is 100% relative, and deppends on the person.
This isn't black or what at all, for me.....that criteria of apprechiation constitutes everyone's 'grey'
True. Not all people are openly selfish..some more than others. What i mean in fact is that, the ideas that are maybe called ''evil'' are somewhat selfish, but not necessarily evil.
Lets look at he big businesses. most of them are responsible for polution, water, air, noise polution, whatever else. The ideas of that manager, business leader, arent evil, they are selfish, and to his own interest. They are more than evil to the people who have to endure all their big business crap.
Calling ideas(people) 'evil' depends on witch side of the fence you are.
__________________
في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
Saying that believing people can be good or evil is too black and white is disingenuous to what is a simplified argument, by asking if ideas can be 'evil'. Obviously, I think evil is not an absolute but something people have in quanitiy, and with a thousand thousand complications.
But some people are just so clearly one side of the fence it makes perfect sense to call them evil. Hitler is one such person, Stalin is another. That people are selfish by nature also rather muddles the issue for me; that does not detract from evil acts or thought or intent, as for as judging it morally is concerned.
I assume I would rather vehemently disagree with whatever your professors told you, Lil.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
I agree with Lil on this. Ideas cannot be evil. Hitler's actions were evil, his ideas were not. His ideas themselves did not hurt anybody, it was the fact that he actually did something about them and acted on them. As I explained in my first post, ideas are just that--ideas, and whether they are "right" or "wrong" is a matter of opinion. Again, there are ALWAYS going to be people who disagree with you when you say "this is good" or "this is evil", no matter how obvious the answer should seem to the majority. Saying that somebody's thoughts are evil is, like somebody already mentioned, hugely over simplifying things.
My argment went off on one. It went off on ''are people evil'' rather than are 'ideas evil' because we(or rather I) got Hitler and Stalin into this, i think.
__________________
في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
Genocide is not evil? Trying to wipe out all other races and ruiling over your people through fear and iron fist tactics is not evil? Total self advancement over all others to sacrifice the weak for progress is not evil? Stalin, Mao, Hitler and all of their henchmen or followers are evil. Some ideas can only be generated through a nat or an original inclination for it. What part of Hitlers ideas were not evil i ask you? Stalin wanted to advance his people for his own ego mind you, he wanted to show the west... so he sacrificed the weak and helpless along with those who would stop him... same as Mao... there are no excusses for what they did.
Why do you think the Iraq people were starving to begin with? There economy was being directed to palaces and armies to try and conquer their neighbors... Sadams henchmen selectively went after people with voices and slaughtered them. Only war would topple the tyranny they suffered... civilwar would have only toppled Sadam and no one was left to stand because there was fear.
Hitler was indeed evil. I think killing several million people out of blind racial hatred qualifies you as evil. He may not have been evil when he simply had the idea, but the fact that he carried those ideas out in such horrible ways makes him purely evil.
Just because his followers liked him doesn't make his actions any less heinous or horrible. I have seen many of his followers and believers, they are called skinheads. And most of them are so purely filled with idiocy and ignorance that they make Bush sound like a linguist.
The fact that he was "intelegent" doesn't make his actions any less evil as well. If anything, that just makes his actions even more horrific because an intelegent person should know that killing millions of innocent people just because you don't like them is wrong in every sense of the word.
__________________
Last edited by BackFire on May 29th, 2004 at 07:23 PM
Different people have different ideas about the two, something that may seen alright to us, may be viewed as immoral and "evil" to others.
In an example, I have a Baptist friend, and she's shocked by the things I do in every day life, to her they are "evil" but to me it's the norm where I am from.
Gender: Male Location: Dreaming...Or am I living...
You guys are so one sided.
Was Hitler Evil?
Depends whose perspective.
Sure you and I and a bunch of other people think he's evil, but to him and his advisors and his followers he wan't evil.
Ideas arn't evil. Its how they are evil. Genocide as an idea is not evil. How or if, it's carried out is evil.
But most of your arguments excluding some of Lil's, don't touch on point of view! It HAS to! that is the basic definition.
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say that we can't say that he was evil--that it's a matter of opinion--and then go on to say that the thing he's known for is evil.
And on unrelated notes ...
I'd like to heartilly thank the three or so posters who have actually tried to answer my question during all this Hitler talk (no, I'm not really complaining--that's life on a message board for you).
I, personally, do not think an idea can actually be evil. Of course, a lot of ideas can lead to evil, but that's not the same thing, I think.
__________________ "Men curse the Communist Party, but eventually it may release them. If hell were endless, then God would be worse than our Secret Police."--Pastor Valentin
KMC Community Forums
...it's not that complicated.
May 29th, 2004 12:19 PM
...read the damn line propperly. 
