We're talking about the same being Leon, you just havent caught on yet. As such he isnt even on Lt's level and he also doesnt factor in because his role doesnt exist in current continuity.
Of course HOTU is below TOAA itself because it wouldnt allow its full power to be so readily available for potential misuse. However unless we hear otherwise from Marvel we have to take it as gods power because of how it dealt with LT who is known to work for God. It all stands to reason.
As for the true beyonders. All you know of them is that they create the cosmic cubes and are from beyond our multiverse. However they are still from Marvel creation and as such are susceptible to gods power and those that wield it. So im sorry to say but LT and Phoenix are included.
no no gs, i told u STOP thinkin about the pheonix nonesense remember, ok here are sum facts, the fake beyonder{and we have to take his power as a representation of the true beyonders} could create a paradox in space time and destroy the multiverse, he talked to the tribunal and the tribunal was powerless to stop him or bring im under sontrol, he could have easiluy killed the tribunal if he wanted, the true beyonder race is said to be responsible for all the different form of life , in all universes and are said to use the celestials as workers or pawns to do the job, the beyond realm when it was visited by doom was said to be infinitely vast and powerful, even being larger than the marvel multiverse.
so u see even though TOAA could destroy the beyonder, THOTU probably couldnt, and LT and pheonix{she shouldnt even be mentioned here} sure as hell cant.
Leon no we dont have to take the pre ret beyonders feats as an indication of the true beyonders powers as the Pre retcon beyonder was retconned and all of his feats were made out to be illusions. For all we know the true beyonders are nowhere near as powerful as the fake beyonder.
Where did you get that stuff about the celestials from? Its common knowledge that in current continuity they are the creations of eternity and are used to sow genetic potential across the universe.
The true beyonders are from Marvel creation and as such they still have to answer to the supreme being of marvel and those that carry out his/its will be it LT or Phoenix.
As for your views of phoenix being a lesser being all you need do is follow this link:
hmmm, it was an ILLUSION but it was also a representation of the power of TRUE BEYONDERS, other wise they wouldnt have called him a BEYONDER{i cant believe ur gonna argue on a stupid thing like this} AND PLEASE STOP WITH THE "CURRENT CONTINUITY" THING, just because u choose one comic out of the hundred's currently available doesnt mean everythin in any other comics past AND the clear present is changed, if anythin, the huge number of proofs in the other comics right now would make the new pheonix retcon unacceptable.
Phoenix does not carry out the will of the TOAA in regard to matters of judgement, the LT does this.
Also if the Beyonder's realm is outside the marvel multiverse which LT safeguards but inside creation then who is to say that TOAA cannot enter the beyonder realm just because TOAA cannot enter the marvel multiverse.
Too many unknowns.
I cannot be bothered getting into the phoneix debate except to say a retcon back to its/her orginal power levels is needed badly.
True and it is a pity that writers do not think of the worthwhile past stories that they invalidate with every silly retcon that is made in order to pander to current marketing strategies.
You can continue to delude yourself if you wish but current continuity puts phoenix in the hierarchy exactly where i said she was. A retcon gets rid of or alters concepts and scenarios that came before.
The Beyonder was a controversial character amonst creators. Creators felt that Jim Shooter had abused his role as editor-in-chief, and forced the use of the omnipotent character upon other writers and editors. Some critics felt the crossovers didn't always mesh well with the main book. One of the most vocal critics was John Byrne.
Apparently, Steve Englehart wanted to tie in the Beyonder to older characters known as the Beyonders. According to Englehart, editor Ralph Macchio hated the character and ordered the Beyonder "removed" from the Marvel Universe. Englehart did as asked but has stated that he tried to exile the character with dignity. The character was subjected to a retcon making him less potent that originally determined, and explanations of his omnipotence have been written off as the more powerful beings "playing along" because the Beyonder's role was pre-determined.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyonder"
The beyonder is no representation of the true beyonders because his power at that level didnt exist it was mere illusion.
If you were a well read comic book fan you'd know that this recent retcon has indeed returned phoenix back to its original state. The phoenix you have in your head is a retconned phoenix
Ive been doing some research. It seems people have been mixing up some of the ideas behind the Fake beyonder with the true beyonders.
It was the fake beyonder who claimed to be the ebodiment of a multiverse from beyond ours, however after the retcon it seems people have been believeing that the true beyonders come from outside of our multiverse as well when instead they merely come form another dimension to our universe. They are very much a part of our multiverse it seems. Have a look:
Yes. Theres an agreement between him and the abstracts. As thanks for the m-bodies they give him energy which he needs to sustain himself. Its something like that anyway. I only recently found out from illadelph
Ha ha that reply is quite your style, that is to try create a strawman through petty insults.
Actually I have been reading comics for quite some time and remember the first appreance of the phoenix entity when there was one x title and not the plethora of sub standard x titles that exists today to pander to fanboys.
And no it is most certainly not a return to the phoenix that first appeared so stop peddling such nonsense.
Last edited by 7PennyNightmare on Sep 15th, 2005 at 06:42 PM
wasn't HOTU just a srt of point where all the energies in the universe meet/pass whatever. so not sure about him having the power of God or a portion of it.
knowing this doesn't that mean it is the number most powerful item within the actuality and constraints of the universe.
Dont pretend to be well versed in that era of comics only to post a statement that suggests otherwise. You'll only make yourself look really silly.
Back in phoenixes original appearance Jean was phoenix it was her ultimate potential realised. It wasnt a seperate entity it was merely Jean in union with the primal force of creation due to her mutation. The energy bird was merely a physical manifestation of her power.
Marvel later wanted Jean a popular heroine in her time for X factor after her death. To do this they needed her to have a clean slate and no longer be accountable for the destruction of D'bari and its inhabitants. In order to achieve this the 86 retcon made Jeans energy signature a seperate entity unto itself and gave it a new origin. It was no longer the result of a union beween Jean and the primal force of creation (as clearly stated numerous times in uncanny 135, 137, Classic Xmen 8,42 and 43) but merely the sentient psionic energy of all things that do and ever will exist in the universe. It was a leech on life unborn and lost its status as the power behind creation.
New Xmen in 2002 reverted Phoenix to being Jeans mutation which bonded her to the power of creation. Endsong cemented this into current continuity, as have handbooks and references in titles such as F4.
It sounds like you might have it mixed up with the M'kraan crystal from how youre describing it. We dont know for a fact that its gods power, its just the fact that it made Thanos supreme over Living Tribunal the being said to work for Marvels God that suggests it is. That and Thanos speculated it was. As such until we hear anything different on the matter from Marvel i guess we just have to go along with it.
You said you have the comics and you've read them therefore i'll point you to the issue. Uncanny Xmen 137. First page. Happy reading. No need to post the due apology
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Sep 15th, 2005 10:49 AM
