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they HAVE shown indications of psionic abilities in the past -- mind-wiping earth, putting thoughts in the minds of skyfathers, creating barriers between dimensions. they are also master geneticists. i wonder if they coul psionically alter her dna to make her a non-mutant? and again, they have been shown to be beyond many reality warpers so they must have some resistance to these types of attacks.
however, i also admitted that proven feats are ltd when it comes to celestials, so i can't make TOO much of an argument on their behalf.
i am curious though about something else -- your interpretatin of HoM events would seem to indicate that you feel wanda can actually destroy/supercede a manifestation of "god's/toaa's" (ie - you seem to think she could have destroyed the pf). IS that what you are implying?
She's still human. They step on her and she's dead. No kidding. If it comes down to anything, there's more of them then her, and so they'll more often than not kill her before she could do anything.
*Only entertaining the idea that she could hurt them and that she actually affected the universe, much less the multiverse or omniverse*
Roma says " The chaos wave will keep expanding along the sidereal string......perhaps to the ascension"
She doesnt conclusively say the chaos wave will consume the white hot room. She speculates that the wave will consume everything up to the white hot room. Given that as well documented the white hot room is beyond creation and given that she goes on to say that the effect of the wave will be that creation will collapse into a blob i really cant see youre interpretation as being the more likely.
The White Hot Room is beyond Creation. Theres a reason why its called the Crown Demi and thats because it sits above and beyond creation. On top of it. We witnessed this in New X-men 154 and we saw in Uncanny 462 how everything was just fine in the white hot room. Phoenix was not created Demi. It is the power of creation its a level of consciousness that brings about union with God. It manifests into creation as the Big Bang or via the minds of sentient beings.
It wasnt stated anywhere in any way shape or form that Wanda generated the Wave herself. It was just stated that her manipulations breached the walls between realities and as a result a chaos wave expanded through the multiverse.
In Gambit and the Xternals it was stated that the M'kraan keeps the doors between realities shut and that if one were to be breached a draft effect would pass through collapsing creation. Thats too similar to discount and given that there was no mention of the wave being generated by Wanda you cant use it as a feat of hers. All we know conclusively is that her actions triggered it.
I agree she affected reality on a universal scale. Thats her feat
They are stated to be as nothing to the Celestials. Then its made clear that a Celestial could crush a cube being.
We're talking about the race of Celestials Demi who gathered together are without a doubt beyond Wanda if young Franklin Richard at full potential is stated to equal a Celestial in power. Just look at what he's done at such a young age.
It doesnt match Wandas feat but given that he was only about 7 its completely feasible that he will at the very least be equal to her in power. Given that his potential is actually stated to be Celestial level we have to accept that. Forget the speculation.
Incorrect Wanda says in House of M 7 when Pietro suggests the warping that she wouldnt be able to control it. He then offers his help and as we know she got Xavier to help as well. Therefore house of M was only possible with the aid of Xavier and QS to guide and coordinate her abilities. Against a race of Celestials each one beyond a young Franklin Richards in power i really dont think she stands a chance. Its common sense.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Nov 28th, 2005 at 03:00 AM
Agreed. Id understand the counter argument if it was a single Celestial but not against their entire race. With each one beyond a young Franklin Richards in power.
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I don't doubt that Celestials have psionic powers....but that's still a "physical" power. It's not, for example, an assault on the soul, or by twisting fundamental universal concepts. They haven't shown powers beyond that at all.
To answer your question - I don't see the PF the way GS does. If the PF IS in fact the equivalent of the "Big Bang" or whatever, then could Wanda unmake the Big Bang? Yes. Would that constitute defeating the PF? I guess so. Could she beat Dark Phoenix, or the Phoenix who lost to Magneto, or the Phoenix who fought Galactus or the "jgg" Phoenix? Absolutely.
They step on her and she comes back. She then proceeds to unmake them. She showed in HoM #8 that she's beyond physical death. Unless they do something they've never shown the ability to do - unmake her - there's no way they can win. Meanwhile, they've shown a considerable vulnerability to physical harm. Wanda can simply flood them with hyperspace energies ala Sue Storm and demolish them all at once.
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She said "to the ascension itself". Why would she bother mentioning that if she didn't mean to imply that the very Ascension was threatened??? When Hitler said he's going to conquer people from London to Moscow, he didn't mean he was going to stop just before getting to Moscow - that means INCLUDING Moscow. How can you see it any differently??
The Crown was created by TOAA, as was the Phoenix Force. It was willed into existence by TOAA. So yes, it's very much a part of creation. It sits on top of it, yes, but it's still been created at some point. And that means, like everything else, it's vulnerable to Wanda's Chaos Wave. Roma said it was going to spread to the Ascension itself. They were in the White Hot Room because the wave hadn't reached it yet. That doesn't mean it was safe if Roma's words were any indication.
Wanda generates chaos energy - it's well known. It was called Chaos Magic during Busiek's run, and Chaos Energy by Lord Templar prior to that. the nature of that energy creates unlikely scenarios (eg - CHAOS) with Wanda, in the past, having limited control. She learned to control her chaos energy by dictating the scenarios, as Strange indicated when he revealed that it's NOT Magic at all. So it's a huge stretch to suggest that Claremont, being very familiar with Wanda, would choose the term "Chaos Wave" as a coincidence. It's clear, looking at the history of reality doorways, that what's different is Wanda's chaos wave...because she's generating it.
But we also know that there are multiple doorways between realities that are independent of the M'Kraan Crystal...these doorways are always open. They tend to appear in swamps, and in the arctic (Man-Thing and Hulk). So clearly the "doorways must stay shut" thing is unique to the doorways within the M'Kraan Crystal, otherwise every open doorway would lead to destruction, and we know from Man-Thing, Exiles and Hulk that it's not the case.
Cube being powers are limited, so like I said, it makes sense that Celestials are beyond them. So what?
IIRC, the Celestials wanted to raise Franklin as one of their own....that doesn't mean that he's their equal in power, it just means that they believe they are best qualified to show Franklin his potential. the Celestials proved unable to undo what Franklin did - he's actually beyond them. Look at how many hassles they had to go through - they had to try to boil the seas of ONE PLANET AT A TIME - and it took sacrificng Asheima to maintain the planet. Why, if Franklin is considered an "equal"? The only logical answer is that Franklin is actually more powerful.
Also, just because Franklin did this at a young age doesn't at all imply that he's capable of going beyond that. Nothing at all indicates that he can become more powerful - nothing. What can improve with age is his CONTROL over his power, but not the level. There's no evidence to show otherwise.
So we have someone who has a feat beyond anything the Celestials were able to duplicate or even undo still falling short of what Wanda has done.
It's speculation to suggest that Franklin could grow more powerful than that. To think otherwise ignores the history of most mutant powers, GS. Most of the time, you're born with total access to all your powers, you just learn to control it over time. that is to say, Storm at 25 being transported to the body of Storm at 15, would have the same power level. the only difference would be in stamina. But that only applies to powers where energy projection is involved.
Untrue. Wanda was worried that she couldn't be able to do it, but QS offered his support in the form of encouragement - he told her to tap into Xavier's powers and read everybody's mind and give them what they want. Xavier wasn't consciously a part of it and QS didn't contribute anything beyond, "You can do it! I believe in you!". Re-read the issue.
So my points stand:
1)Franklin has accomplished a feat that the Celestials couldn't duplicate without working together and rendering one of their own comatose, and couldn't undo it without destroying (using lame tactics like boiling the seas) one planet after another.
2)That feat still doesn't match Wanda
3) There's no evidence that Franklin's power would grow, as opposed to his control.
Wanda still wins. Handily.
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Last edited by demigawd on Nov 28th, 2005 at 04:46 AM
Most cosmic beings from Skyfather level up can warp reality, each Celestial is more powerful than young Franklin Richards. Youre claiming Wanda can singlehandedly defeat their entire race which would be hard to believe even if she was sane. But shes not and she cant control her powers. Acknowledge that.
For evidence on how and why i see the Phoenix the way i do visit these threads on the other forums where the issue is talked about in-depth
In the likely event that you cant be bothered then you'll just accept the fact that Wanda wouldnt stand a chance against Phoenix if its intentions are to kill her. By the the terms of this forum that would be the case therefore you wouldnt have any sort of plot device to give SW much needed support. Therefore NO SW could NOT defeat Phoenix. The infos waiting for you.
Phoenix manifests as the Big Bang, the Big Bang isnt the be all and end all of what Phoenix is. If you knew about the origins behind the likes of Eternity, Galactus and so on you'd see that undoing the Big Bang (not that she could) wouldnt effect Phoenix in the slightest. It would however wipe Wanda herself from existence. Plus if Wanda tried to interfere with something like the Big Bang, Phoenix work, then she would get taken down.
How has Wanda shown she is beyond physical death? She has shown no such thing. You do NOT have conclusive evidence to make such claims. If you do then please by all means present it Oh and the issues House of M 7:
Where in these scans do you see conclusively that Wanda is beyond a physical death? I certainly cant. Hawkeyes arrow disables her temporarily. It never visibly hit any vital organs and as you can see from the back view it wasnt embedded that far. Adding further support to my case Hawkeye didnt seem the least bit surprised when Wanda raised her head and talked to him. Why? Because it wasnt a shot intended to kill it was a disabling shot, a flesh wound. Wanda was alive to negate the effects of the arrow upon herself. Theres no evidence whatsoever that would stop anyone from believing that if a Celestial or all of the Celestials unleashed a planet destroying blast on her that she wouldnt be annihilated. I look forward to your evidence.
Also how have the Celestials shown considerable vulnerability to harm? Thats the exaggeration my friend. The entire Asgardians comibined energies couldnt scratch a single member of the third host and plus one only has to look at Galactus' shock during "The End" to see that destroying a Celestial is no easy task.
The fact that we know the Crown is beyond creation and the fact that Roma clarified by saying that creation would collapse suggests that it wouldnt reach the White Hot Room. By all accounts its beyond creation both on panel and by definition and until you have evidence that shows that is not the case, until you have evidence beyond Romas speculation that it could "perhaps reach the ascension" then you cant assume or make out that it definitely could. So we'll leave it at that.
Nope. The Phoenix Force is Gods power. Its not something he created. The name Phoenix Force was created and the firebird image was created (by the minds of the hosts symbolic of their life and death struggles) but no Gods power was not created Demi. The Crown is an emanation point for Gods essence and is where creation begins from and where it ends. The Crown however is beyond creation by on panel evidence and by definition. Roma never said the wave would spread and engulf the White Hot Room. She speculated that its range could extend as far as the ascension. It was speculation. Nothing definitive. That is fact. So for all we know it would not have. Therefore you cant try and hype up the wave by saying that it could have destroyed the Crown and Phoenix. That is unfounded and hilarious in light of the fact that the Chaos wave got stopped by Meggan.
Wanda was said to control chaos magic. Dr Stranges comments then retconned that and we found out that Wanda actually warps reality. He never said no chaos magic doesnt exist but yes Wanda controls chaos energy. Come on Demi you gootta be kidding me? She warps reality. Roma went on to describe what effects the chaos wave would have which goes some way into explaining why it was referred to in that manner:
"""""""Left unchecked all creation would morph into a single, formless,amorphous , conceptual blob. The very concepts of order and chaos will simply cease. It will be the end of rational existence as we know it. """""""
That is why it is referred to as a Chaos wave Demi. Not because it is supposedly generated by Wanda. You have no evidence whatsoever to conclusively say it was generated by Wanda as opposed to her actions triggering it. Thats a fact. You dont have conclusive evidence, you just have your interpretation which isnt supported very well. Therefore lets leave it at that. Wanda warped 616.
Not at all. Theres a difference between dimensional portals and breaches in the walls between realities. One hints at careful intended construction, the other a forceful more careless aperture which affects the structural of the brane. Either way a portal and the breaches are obviously different in nature to both the M'kraan crystal case and the House of M chaos wave. Those two are too similar for you to discount merely because it doesnt suit your case.
On top of that. So what? The breach was temporarily sealed by Blobs backside and the chaos wave got stopped by Meggan. Left unchecked it wouldve done untold damage but it wasnt given the chance. If Meggan can stop the wave then a variety of beings could do the same quite easily. That at least gives a reason for the non interference from LT or Phoenix. Plus can i please remind you that you have NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE that shows the wave was genrated by Wanda so continually posting your unsupported opinion on why it was isnt going to change anything.
All beings this side of TOAA are limited so whats your point? I like how you didnt acknowledge you were wrong on that point but you instead dismissed my evidence. Cool.
Well for them to be best qualified as you state their words suggest wouldnt that itself tell you that they themselves have vast reality warping powers themselves? Given their ranking and the fact that most beings from skyfather level upwards do possess such powers it seems that would indeed be the case. Given :
Wandas mental state
No conclusive evidence to say she couldnt die physically
The fact that she stated as ive shown that she couldnt control her powers without the aid of Pietro and Xavier
I really dont see how she'd stand up to an entire race of millenia old reality warpers. A RACE Demi. Please acknowledge that.
"Celestials?" It was the dreaming Celestial who was wrecking havoc on Franklins reality anyway and Ashema who as stated in Official HBook of Alternate Universes 2005 was severely depowered by the Dreaming C anyway. So bit of a moot point really.
Thats absolute rubbish Demi and you know it. In virtually all cases what has improved with age in mutants is both power and control. When mutants reach their prime , when theyre fully grown they are not only more powerful but with experience they can control their powers better. For example look at how much more powerful Magneto became when he was reverted to his prime, an age where his metabolsim and fitness allowed him to employ his powers at their fullest extent with less need for worry about burning out and tiring from being too young or too old.
Colossus and Namor have increased in strength as theyve become men and Namors gained additional abilities.
Jean Greys telekinesis (Prior to the recent phoenix retcon i might add and even before Phoenixes introduction) grew in strength as she got older.
You have no evidence that the Celestials were unable/incapable of undoing what Franklin did. Ashema as documented was depowered by the Dreaming Celestial.
I think its down to our differing definitions of what more powerful is.
Being in his prime will allow him to exert his power at higher levels without fear of his body burning and not being able to cope therefore he would be more powerful. He would be able to project and employ a lot more power and thats really not down to more control.
Plus Franklin created that pocket universe subconsciously with no visible strain and he manifested it as a blue ball whoch he kept in his pocket. That imo is more impressive than a full grown adult with the aid of two mutants warping 616. As actually stated on panel without their aid she wouldnt have been able to keep it together. Ive shown you the scan. That woman was a mess. Given Franklins age when he pulled that off, the fact that it was subconscious and the fact that his deployment of power was enough to get the Celestials involved id say that was more impressive all things considered.
The Celstials by all likelihood also have vast reality warping power if they themselves as you stated consider themselves best qualified to tutor Franklin in the use of his abilities, if they think they can help him reach his full potential. The cube beings can warp reality on a planetary scale, th eCelestials are exponentially more powerful than them. I really cant see Wanda taking down a race of them.
Look, in short, as I see it, already young Fanklin showed power at least equal to Celestial. Celestials know, he hasnt close live up to the potential he has (and he already created pocket universe, so his potentail is beyond of what he showed). I see Wanda being above one Celestial, but against all, come one, she would be less than antz, its ridicoluos. Question, could she even beat Exitar, maybe, probably.
But by no means can Wanda even challenge Phoenix, come on! Jean was created, yes, but not Phoenix Force, PF wasnt created.
Wanda could never be even a little threat to Phoenix. Wanda is certainly one of the most powerful being ever shown in MU, but ceratinly not even a threat to the Phoenix.
ughhhh, isee everyone's caught gs's essay writing syndrome where they cant seem to be able to get a point through, {and yes gs, every thread u post in does seem to be to save pheonix's ass or bash a pheonix hater}
just like "some"{cough GS} people on these forums, people in these threads have started to take any and every wanda feat at face value and interpret it in the highest possible way. wanda is nowhere near that powerful in reality. affecting the multiverse stuff she did is what PIS is all about, lets think about it for a second shall we. wanda is a mutant, a very powerful one, but not quiyte on par with the likes of hyperstorm, nate, cable and franklin. suddenly writers think up of ways in which she can affect the multiverse{or OMNIVERSE!} u know damn well that sumthing is incosistant/wrong here. odin, who is only a skyfather SHOOK the whole multiverse with a single punch once. now think about it, how many sky fathers are there, and how many beings ABOVE skyfathers there are in EVERY universe, are all of them potential universal affectors/destroyers?! hell if that was te case then LT would have quite a job on his hands wont he? u have to look at the AVERAGE power level that the writer gae to a character, and many factors that come into play like art, style, cannon/non cannon, low level feats of a character that contradict such power and most of all, PIS or even more what the writer/artist was trying to SHOW in those feats of the character and whether it was just a fanatic writer or whether the character was not supposed to be taken as above abstracts{the same idea in the second last pheonix retcon, dr strange, some silver surfer and x men/fantastic four comics{i.e. invisible woman single handedly killing a celestial} what ive seen is that most people just bring up the low end feats of the opposotion and high end feats of their characters {manipulated mostly in favour of their character} and wont listen to anythin else. this is not really the way to go.
now for this matcheup there are two very probable oputcomes depoending on the writer. 1st : wanda goes up against one celestial and gets her ass SO sorely beaten down that it leaves a permanent mark and puts her in her place
2: the celestials think theyr supreme and try to attack her to show their superiority by killing her with a single raise of a finger, but suddenly wanda says some impressive one liners and kills a few and proves to them{rather menacingly} that the INHABITANTS of a UNIVERSE are nuthin compared to one who can destroy the entire MULTIVERSE{in bolds just like they do it in marvel and dc}
both are very logical outcomes , if its an x men or house of m xomic the 2nd scenario is probably true, if its a cosmic one like silver surfer/dr stange or sumthin than the first one is probably whats gonna happen, {see too much inconsisntency} and thas that.
{oh btw, ALL of franklins feats are FAR above what any celestial/ abstract has been shown to be able to do}
Oh dear, looks like i made a big boo boo. I was inteding to write celestial, as in not celestials, as in not their entire race. Sorry for my stupid typing error. (against a whole race of celestials!!! wanda would be crushed)
In my opinion, Wanda would take it. She has shown that she is capable of universal reality manipulation, (omniversal reality manipulation still up for debate). If it was said franlin was on par with a celestial- wanda has shown that at the moment she has outdone franlkin in terms of power, so i'm gonna give this to wanda.
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She's NOT sane, but she doesn't have to be in order to beat Celestials. Sanity is a necessary component to exercise good judgment in things like...choosing who should remain a mutant and who shouldn't. It's not necessary to kick somebody's ass.
Equating skyfather reality warping to Wanda reality warping is about as effective as equating Galactus' eyeblasts with Cyclops. That is to say, NOT effective. Take a better angle, GS.
I read it - it's your usual bunch of crap combined with scans that don't show anything. Face facts, GS, EVERY manifestation of Phoenix has shown vulnerability. Dark Phoenix was beaten by a laser, Phoenix I was beaten by Magneto, and later by a Magneto clone (who may very well be a creation of....ta daaa...WANDA), and later still had her "crown" disconnected and later still was in a terribly weakened state. Phoenix II was beaten by the Beyonder and unable to defeat Galactus. As a "force of creation" her role in combat is unseen and likely non-existent. As an avatar, her record is less-than-impressive. Wanda would simply "jgg" Jean and that would be the end of that. Wanda wins handily, regardless of your unsupported "tipareth" mumbo jumbo.
I know about the origins of Eternity, Galactus, etc. And I know it has nothing to do with Phoenix . You're trying to cast the Phoenix Force as an aspect of God, making her essentially untouchable. That whole bizarre theory aside, Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force, Jean is an avatar - and she's shown limited power and even more limited knowledge of how to use it. Look at those same scans you like to shove in people's faces - she wasn't even the wisest avatar there. It took someone else to explain things to her. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she'd be a bit wiser. You'd think if she were an aspect of God, she wouldn't have to listen to a "they" all the time.
Fact - Jean is NOT the Phoenix Force. "They" are.
Fact - Jean gets her power and her orders from "They".
Fact - by extension, those powers are limited to something less than "they"
Fact - those powers have not been enough to put her solidly over Galactus, or even the Beyonder
Fact - Jean is NOT all powerful, even if the Phoenix Force is.
Fact - Wanda kicks the crap out of Jean any day of the week and Jean will use the excuse that "they" won't let her win.
Are you kidding me, GS? Clint's an expert marksman - that was a deathblow. You can tell because Wanda is spewing blood....that means it punctured her lungs. He was TRYING to kill her. In fact, read the quote, "I was hoping if I couldn't kill you for all the $&%* you've done I thought at least I'd maybe snap you out of your crazy". And this was AFTER declaring in the previous issue that he was going to kill her. He was TRYING to kill her and figured that if it didn't work (her being a god and all) that it would at least snap her out of it. Neither worked...when he shot her, she was OUT. DEAD. Then she just got up like everything was cool. Look at her speech pattern. It's not the usual "Clint....Barton....why?" speech pattern that dying people have. She was absolutely fine...just undid everything. She's clearly beyond physical death.
On the other hand "jgg".
And yet Sue Storm completely destroyed one with her own meager energies, Thor blasted a hole in one, and Jean destroyed the hand of one. Physical damage.
Like I said before - Wanda just needs to blast them with hyperspatial energies and they're all done. Simple task. But I acknowledge that it'll be harder to beat them than it would be for her to beat, say, Wolverine. Or Phoenix.
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
that doesn't make any sense. Roma said it could reach the Ascension itself. There's no two ways to interpret that - that means the White Hot Room itself is threatened. The White Hot room was stated to be beyond the universe....not beyond creation. Nothing except TOAA is beyond creation. You're stretching A LOT to say otherwise just to save your precious White Hot Home.
Meggan never stopped the Chaos Wave - she sealed the breach. Big difference. Also, the Phoenix Force MAY be God's power, but the White Hot Rooom is part of creation. You have no evidence whatsoever to support a position to the contrary. Therefore, Roma's statement that the Chaos Wave could reach the Ascension is accurate. You can't spin it any other way, no matter how much you'd like to. "Reaching to Ascension" is reaching the very throne of god....it means the Chaos Wave theatens EVERYTHING.
I kid you not...read up on Avengers. Lord Templar and Pagan are both chaos beings and Wanda's powers were compatible with theirs, which is why she also got strange effects whenever battling them. They are both said to generate chaos energy. This was before it was considered "magical". In fact, it was referred to as Chaos Energy in Galactus: The Devourer and in Avengers #59.
Not all reality warpers are the same, just like not all energy projectors are the same. Wanda's powers work by generating chaos energy (which, as Dr. Strange said, is not magical). This chaos energy, when unchecked, causes random effects (as we've seen in within Roma's citadel where there are multiple versions of characters changing throughout the multiverse). Wanda learned how to harness that power so that SHE dictated the changes made by the chaos energy. In the process, she unmakes reality reality via the chaos wave, then re-makes it in her own image.
So yes, Wanda very much created the Chaos Wave, being that Chaos Energy is the source of her power.
That's what chaos energy does. Wanda generates chaos energy. That's ALWAYS been her thing. Chaos energy is real - both Templar and Pagan are chaos beings.
A chaos wave is comprised of chaos energy, GS. Wanda generates chaos energy! You're reaching....AGAIN.
Who said anything about dimensional portals? You can traverse dimensions without leaving the universe. Those doorways in Man-Thing and Exiles are doorways to REALITIES, not dimensions. And they're left open and they're just fine. The "don't leave the doors open" concept is unique to the M'Kraan Crystal, nothing else, otherwise reality would always be threatened by open doorways...and that's simply not the case. Post up that AOA Gambit scan again - read what it says - it's specifically the M'Kraan Crystal's doorways that cause the blinking out of reality.
Meggan didn't stop the wave - she sealed the breach. Wanda's chaos energy was fine and dandy. The abstracts didn't get involved because they don't care about a single universe - Wanda only INTENDED for her effects to reach throughout the universe. That doesn't mean that lacks the ability to go beyond that, as tearing a hole in the multiverse proves.
Will it make you feel better if I say that Celestials are a lot more powerful than Cube beings? There there. You're right! Does that further any of your points whatsoever? Nope. Wanda is STILL beyond them, and any suggestion to the contrary is pure speculation on your part.
Like I said before, it's totally invalid to compare skyfather reality warping powers (which are extremely limited) to Wanda's, so don't even bother trying to draw a parallel. And if Celestials don't show reality warping powers...they don't have it. to suggest otherwise is speculation. They said that they want to raise Franklin as one of their own....they never actually said anything about his power being the same as theirs.
And, like I said - there's NOTHING to suggest that Franklin is supposed to be even more powerful than his pocket universe feat. Nada.
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
Not at all - Exitar himself was there boiling the seas. Ashema was racing against the clock to save the planet before Exitar destroyed it. So yes, multiple Celestials were involved, and together couldn't match Franklin's single feat.
Using his power taxes Magneto's body - of course when he's an old man he can't process those energies the same way, just like Quicksilver will become slower when he's 80 than he is now. Reality warping is an entirely mental exercise - it's subject entirely to control and has nothing to do with physical maturity. C'mon GS, you know better. Xavier isn't more powerful now than when he first got his powers - his control is better.
Their powers are physical. Namor didn't gain additional abilities.
No it hasn't - her ability to use it grew. The power itself was the same.
You have no evidence that they were capable of doing what Franklin did. If they were capable, they would have had to go through that big long, multi-issue mess. They would have blinked away the pocket universe and been done with it. The fact is, they COULDN'T blink it away...they didn't have the power. And until you show they do...they don't
Gender: Unspecified Location: Speedblitzing around the universe f
reality warping doesn't really require much of the physical body. It's NOT the same thing as magnetism, or super strength, or optic blasts. It's a finesse ability, not a brute force ability. You never see reality warpers straining to do something....either they can warp something or they can't. So Franklin's age has nothing to do with his level of power, just how much he can consciously do. There's nothing to suggest that Franklin is capable of doing anything greater than creating a pocket universe. Nobody said he could, nothing has shown he could. Nobody has said his potential is higher than that, nobody said he'll become even more powerful as he gets older. You have nothing to go on.
And just because the Celestials feel they're best equipped to train Franklin doesn't mean they have the same powers. I'm bigger and stronger than my sifu in Kung Fu class, but he's wiser and understands the concepts and principles of fighting better - so he's well equipped to train me, even though I'm actually more powerful than he is. It's the same thing here. Franklin may well be greater than all the Celestials, but their training is top notch and necessary to help Franklin learn to use his powers in a conscious way.
Actually, I'm afraid none of the points were dealt with.
So my points stand:
1)Franklin has accomplished a feat that the Celestials couldn't duplicate without working together and rendering one of their own comatose, and couldn't undo it without destroying (using lame tactics like boiling the seas) one planet after another.
2)That feat still doesn't match Wanda
3) There's no evidence that Franklin's power would grow, as opposed to his control.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 28th, 2005 02:21 AM
Have you read your post? 
. Maybe only Franklin, others cant even compete.
