Love/Hate

Originally posted by New Faith
Wait wait. So I don't know some kid in Asia, therefore a don't love him, so in my absence of love, I hate him?

Pretty bleak, hating 99.9% of the world's population.

Since when is that lack of knowledge of something hate? I assure you, when you successfully define love you will see that the knowledge of someone or something has nothing to do with the actual idea of love. Even then, for your extremely general example, you still do not hate the boy. For starters because you can honestly tell me you don't.

However, unlike hate, Love has different...settings if I may. There is Liking, Infatuated love, Empty love, Romantic love, and Companionate love. But there is only one hate. When there is not even the three basic components of love (intimacy, passion, and commitment) let alone the above six, there is not love...but hate. Recognition does not impede love to form.

Do you, New Faith, believe in love at first sight?

Originally posted by AOR
Since when is that lack of knowledge of something hate? I assure you, when you successfully define love you will see that the knowledge of someone or something has nothing to do with the actual idea of love. Even then, for your extremely general example, you still do not hate the boy. For starters because you can honestly tell me you don't.

However, unlike hate, Love has different...settings if I may. There is Liking, Infatuated love, Empty love, Romantic love, and Companionate love. But there is only one hate. When there is not even the three basic components of love (intimacy, passion, and commitment) let alone the above six, there is not love...but hate. Recognition does not impede love to form.

Do you, New Faith, believe in love at first sight?

Infatuation can lead to obsession, and obsession is not love.

I beleive obsession is caused by a lack of self strength, or even a lack of self love, and therefore this kind of a person is only capable of "loving" someone in this way: being obsessed and projecting all care to another person. Another person who the obsessed person sees as everything that matters, a compensation for everything else that he or she does not have. That is unhealthy, that is selfish, that is not love.

Loving someone allows you to recognize that other person as an individual with his or her own rights to make thier own choices independent of your input. Truly Loving someone also requires that you understand that that person does not NEED you...and you do not NEED him or her, and how it will only work if the emotion is mutual.

However, for the most part I agree with you. Love and Hate are total opposites, you cannot truly love someone and hate them at the same time, and vise versa.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Infatuation can lead to obsession, and obsession is not love.

I beleive obsession is caused by a lack of self strength, or even a lack of self love, and therefore this kind of a person is only capable of "loving" someone in this way: being obsessed and projecting all care to another person. Another person who the obsessed person sees as everything that matters, a compensation for everything else that he or she does not have. That is unhealthy, that is selfish, that is not love.

Loving someone allows you to recognize that other person as an individual with his or her own rights to make thier own choices independent of your input. Truly Loving someone also requires that you understand that that person does not NEED you...and you do not NEED him or her, and how it will only work if the emotion is mutual.

However, for the most part I agree with you. Love and Hate are total opposites, you cannot truly love someone and hate them at the same time, and vise versa.

You can apply that manner of thinking to someone who is obesses. Sure it isn't a healthy life style, but that doesn't make tha person any less of a human than you and I. Same with love. That's why there are so many shapes and forms of it, but only one form of Hate.

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Originally posted by AOR
You can apply that manner of thinking to someone who is obesses. Sure it isn't a healthy life style, but that doesn't make tha person any less of a human than you and I. Same with love. That's why there are so many shapes and forms of it, but only one form of Hate.

I never said that makes the person any less human, or means the person has any fault. I was simply stating that obsession is not true love, I do not beleive it to be so.

There is more than one form of hate:

Racism
Sexism
Self Hatred
Intense Envy
Religiously motivated hatred
Superficiality
Vengeance (which is most likely the most justified of all forms of hate)

and possibly Sadism, although sadism is more about the desire to gain pleasure from causing agony, them about actually disliking the victim.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I never said that makes the person any less human, or means the person has any fault. I was simply stating that obsession is not true love, I do not beleive it to be so.

There is more than one form of hate:

Racism
Sexism
Self Hatred
Intense Envy
Religiously motivated hatred
Superficiality
Vengeance (which is most likely the most justified of all forms of hate)

and possibly Sadism, although sadism is more about the desire to gain pleasure from causing agony, them about actually disliking the victim.

Racism still has love, it's not a complete form of hate nor is it a complete form of love. One still likes one race but dislikes another, not necessarily true love, but love is still involved.

Sexism is more out of egotistical roots than actual hatred. For example a very conservative person (could be defined as sexist) doesn't mean that he hates his/her spouse. On the contrary, he/she could love him/her to death, but be a very self-centered viewing person.

Self-hatred is not an entire hate. For example self-hatred is at times aimed for the group that one derives from (aka Jewish self-hatred, Black self-hatred, Asian self-hatred, etc.) This "hatred" is not once again without love. Because you find the wanting/needing of change. This change of ones self is through the love sought through an idea wanted. It may not make sense, but if you truly hated yourself, change wouldn't be the top thing to do on one's list. Which mean the presence of love is what keeps one alive.

Intense Envy is more or less a greed than it is a hatred. Although envy should not be confused with covetousness, or greed, it is the desire for another's traits, status, abilities, station, or worldly goods. The desire, however, I will leave room for the lack of love but not for it's complete abscence.

Religiously motivated hatred....I'll give you that, only if you can prove that the complete abscence of love in this "hate crime". Is ask this not to disprove you, but to see your reasoning...

Superficiality...laziness?

Vengance, do you not take vengance because you loved the reason for the revenge?

Originally posted by AOR
Racism still has love, it's not a complete form of hate nor is it a complete form of love. One still likes one race but dislikes another, not necessarily true love, but love is still involved.

Love for one race, and hate for another. It is still a form of hatred, even if you argue that it is also a form of love. So Hitler's hate for the Jews was not REAL hatred, because it's only "racism"? 🙄

Originally posted by AOR
Sexism is more out of egotistical roots than actual hatred. For example a very conservative person (could be defined as sexist) doesn't mean that he hates his/her spouse. On the contrary, he/she could love him/her to death, but be a very self-centered viewing person.

Hatred against homosexuals, dislike of someone for thier gender or sexual decisions (machismo and/or extreme feminism) is a form of hatred.

Homophobia is a type of hatred, and it is a form of sexism as well. 😉

Originally posted by AOR
Self-hatred is not an entire hate. For example self-hatred is at times aimed for the group that one derives from (aka Jewish self-hatred, Black self-hatred, Asian self-hatred, etc.) This "hatred" is not once again without love. Because you find the wanting/needing of change. This change of ones self is through the love sought through an idea wanted. It may not make sense, but if you truly hated yourself, change wouldn't be the top thing to do on one's list. Which mean the presence of love is what keeps one alive.

Self hatred IS hate. To hate oneself for ANY reason...inferiority complex, to hate one's appearance, or to hate one's gender/race/watever....not ALL people who hate themselves want to change themselves. And even when they do , it is not about love. It is due to a LACK of Love for oneself. If you love what you are, then you only wish to improve, not CHANGE entirely.

Originally posted by AOR
Intense Envy is more or less a greed than it is a hatred. Although envy should not be confused with covetousness, or greed, it is the [b]desire for another's traits, status, abilities, station, or worldly goods. The desire, however, I will leave room for the lack of love but not for it's complete abscence.[/B]

Not necessarily. You can be rich, handsome, pretty, popular, etc.etc.etc. and still be envious of someone else. You can even be envious of a person who has LESS than you do. This is less about actual greed (as you may not truly WANT what the other person has), and more about a lack of love and admiration (or limitted love) for oneself...therefore a desire to be more like someone else, or have what another person has.

Originally posted by AOR
Religiously motivated hatred....I'll give you that, only if you can prove that the complete abscence of love in this "hate crime". Is ask this not to disprove you, but to see your reasoning...

Hate Crimes do not all have the absense of love? So gaybashing someone out of love is possible? Hating someone for being a muslim is inspired by your love for muslims?

You cannot love and hate the same person at the same time. It's either more towards love, or more towards hate.

Originally posted by AOR
Superficiality...laziness?

WHAT???? Superficiality is the discrimination of someone based on the way they look. It's when you only like people you think are good looking, and dislike people you think are ugly.

Superficial Hatred IS definately a type of hatred. You hate someone for the way they look. Where does laziness fit in to this?

Originally posted by AOR
Vengance, do you not take vengance because you loved the reason for the revenge?

No....you take revenge on someone for what they had done to you or to a loved one. Revenge is not inspired by hatred, but revenge is a type of hatred ITSELF.

When you HATE someone for a wrong that they did.

I'm seeing your reasoning, but I don't think your seeing mine. Do you agree that love and hate are complete opposites?

Originally posted by AOR
I'm seeing your reasoning, but I don't think your seeing mine. Do you agree that love and hate are complete opposites?

Yes, I do. But it's not that simple. And they are not black and white.

Let me explain:

1) An individual person is capable of containing both LOVE and HATE. This is obvious, we are all capable of it. People with high passion especially tend to love to the extreme AND hate to the extreme. People without passion, who are more passive and less excited about things, tend to have more moderate feelings towards other people, and rarely ever feel intense hatred OR intense love.

2) I do not beleive that you can Love and Hate the SAME person. When it comes to another individual, you either love them, like them, don't care, dislike them, or hate them. Now, you can like and dislike a person at the same time. I.E. Thier freindship may mean a lot to you, but you may find them intensely annoying for reasons.

However, like and dislike are moderate relative opinions/emotions. They are not intense like love and hate. You cannot love someone that you hate, and you cannot hate someone that you love. NOT at the same time. I think it's impossible. Anger is not hatred. It may feel like hatred, but it is not. Resentment is not quite hatred yet either. Resenting someone, to a limit, is a result of anger due to how they treat you. You may actually resent someone you LOVE for mistreating you, but NOT hate them.

3) If you LOVE someone, truly love them, you love thier entirety. Thier flaws, thier strengths, thier weaknesses, etc. You also love them enough to know that they are not actually your property. You love them enough to recognize thier individuality and know that they are thier OWN person.....now although this may qualify as Mature Love, it is still an aspect of true love. And FINALLY, True love is unconditional. Nothing they do can make you hate them.

4) If you HATE someone one of the major aspects of this emotion is that you WANT to see that person suffer. Not only for satisfaction, but for pleasure as well. THIS is a major aspect of Hatred. You cannot want to see someone suffer when you LOVE them. You also tend to not care about thier well being. Thier Health, thier finances, thier happiness means nothing to you...in fact you DON'T want them to have any of these things.

Point being, I do not beleive that true Love and true Hate for the SAME person can exist.

5) And Finally- you have stated that their are many types of love, and only one type of hate.

ON THIS, I disagree entirely.

Obsession is NOT LOVE....or necessarily hate. It is something different. Obsession is caused by infatuation but then becomes a sickness. When you are obsessed with someone, you don't truly care about thier happiness or well being. You only care that they are happy with you, you only care what happiness they can provide for you. It is the most selfish and self harming kind of desire. When you are obsessed with someone, you also start to care less and less about YOURSELF. This deluding DESIRE is ALL that matters to you.....

How can Obsession be LOVE if you begin to lack a true care for yourself and a true care for the object (person) of your obsession? And obsession is an unhealthy fixation, where your entire state of mind loses its grip on reality, and focuses only on one thing or person.

Remember...in Obsession, you do not truly care about the other person. Not for thier actual happiness....BECAUSE you are unable to see them as thier own person, as an individual, when you are obsessed you feel as if they are MEANT FOR YOU....and only YOU. You also feel that without them your life is meaningless and that there is NO YOU without them......HOW can this possible be LOVE?

There are MANY types of Hate

Intense Envy is definately one. You cannot love someone that you are intensely envious of. When you love someone, truly love them, you take pleasure in thier success. You are happy because they are happy. Being envious of a person MEANS you hate to see them successful, it bothers you severely to see them happy and powerful. There is no love, no true love, when Envy of that person is present. Envy may be actually an antithesis of love.

Racism= is DEFINATELY a type of Hate. A dislike for someone based on thier race, to see someone as inferior because they are not the same race as you, or of the race that you feel is superior. THERE IS NO LOVE in a racist against the race he/she is against.

And it's not LOVE either....so don't try pulling that card. To Love someone, ONLY because they are a certain race....that is NOT LOVE at all..that is admiration. When you truly love someone, you love them for thier entirety. Not simply because they are a certain race.

Most prejudices in general, are forms of Hate 😉

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, I do. But it's not that simple. And they are not black and white.

Alright, one step at a time:

So if love and hatred where to be scaled for example, this would be a correct view of forming it in your opinion:

Hate-----------------------------------------Love

If you say yes, than, imo, you view the forms of love and forms of hate as degrees from a middle of indifference. Like

Hate--Racism--Religious hate--etc...---indifference---Liking--Infatuated love--Empty love--etc...--Consumate Love (Perfect love)

I however see it as degrees of love. Like a scale strumming down from love:

Love>moving down to hate. Love----------------------------------.Hate

I put a period infront of hate because I believe hatred is point in time from which you have absolutly NO love. I see it like I see cold. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C.

I think love works the same way.

Originally posted by AOR
Alright, one step at a time:

...I put a period infront of hate because I believe hatred is point in time from which you have absolutly NO love. I see it like I see cold. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C.

I think love works the same way.

COLD should not be compared to HEAT but rather to HOT. the more heat you add the less COLD it would be and the more HOT it would be and vice versa.

The -273 degree Celsius theory is relative and not absolute. Things can get colder but scientist needed to define an absolute Zero for temperatures based on certain observed criteria. They just happen to agree on calling that point " absolute Zero" so we have another scale to make a little sense of measuring temperature. It does not make it the absolute coldest state that can be reached.

Originally posted by TheSpinner
COLD should not be compared to HEAT but rather to HOT. the more heat you add the less COLD it would be and the more HOT it would be and vice versa.

The -273 degree Celsius theory is relative and not absolute. Things can get colder but scientist needed to define an absolute Zero for temperatures based on certain observed criteria. They just happen to agree on calling that point " absolute Zero" so we have another scale to make a little sense of measuring temperature. It does not make it the absolute coldest state that can be reached.

Temperature is a physical quantity which gives us an idea of how hot or cold an object is. The temperature of an object depends on how fast the atoms and molecules which make up the object can shake, or oscillate. As an object is cooled, the oscillations of its atoms and molecules slow down. For example, as water cools, the slowing oscillations of the molecules allow the water to freeze into ice. In all materials, a point is eventually reached at which all oscillations are the slowest they can possibly be. The temperature which corresponds to this point is called absolute zero. Note that the oscillations never come to a complete stop, even at absolute zero. ~http://www.pa.msu.edu/~sciencet/ask_st/012992.html

Unless you are stating that it is possible to slow these oscillations further, then it is the coldest temperature state that can be reached.

Justy say 0K...its so much easier than -273 celcius.

Originally posted by Regret
Temperature is a physical quantity which gives us an idea of how hot or cold an object is. The temperature of an object depends on how fast the atoms and molecules which make up the object can shake, or oscillate. As an object is cooled, the oscillations of its atoms and molecules slow down. For example, as water cools, the slowing oscillations of the molecules allow the water to freeze into ice. In all materials, a point is eventually reached at which all oscillations are the slowest they can possibly be. The temperature which corresponds to this point is called absolute zero. Note that the oscillations never come to a complete stop, even at absolute zero. ~http://www.pa.msu.edu/~sciencet/ask_st/012992.html

Unless you are stating that it is possible to slow these oscillations further, then it is the coldest temperature state that can be reached.

I am very conscientious of the definition above and that is the exact criteria I was referring to. I just avoid going into details unless it is called for. And it is still just an observation of the few matters have been observed so far. you can not demonstrate "TRUE" based on examples. Not all matters have been tested. It is still just an assumption. And the observed slowest state is just assumed also. It is limited by the resources used for the observation. 😉

Originally posted by AOR
Alright, one step at a time:

So if love and hatred where to be scaled for example, this would be a correct view of forming it in your opinion:

Hate-----------------------------------------Love

If you say yes, than, imo, you view the forms of love and forms of hate as degrees from a middle of indifference. Like

Hate--Racism--Religious hate--etc...---indifference---Liking--Infatuated love--Empty love--etc...--Consumate Love (Perfect love)

I however see it as degrees of love. Like a scale strumming down from love:

Love>moving down to hate. Love----------------------------------.Hate

I put a period infront of hate because I believe hatred is point in time from which you have absolutly NO love. I see it like I see cold. You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 273 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than -273°C.

I think love works the same way.

Interesting. So alteast we agree that Highest Love and [/i]True Hate[/i] are on different ends of the spectrum.

I still disagree with your theory, however. Because you are implying that you can be intensively envious of someone you love, and that Obsession IS a type of Love. I understand that you beleive that as Love gets weaker and weaker and weaker, it eventually becomes hatred.

I disagree because you are totally disregarding indifference.. I do not beleive that a lack of love equals hate, or that a lack of hate equals love. This could easily be just indifference. But I do strongly feel that true love lacks hate, and that true hate lacks love.

You are arguing that Love can involved a bit of hatred, and still be love, and to me there is no such thing. ANGER is not Hatred. [i]Limitted Resentment is not automatic Hatred. For true Hatred to exist, there has to be an absense of Love.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Interesting. So alteast we agree that Highest Love and [/i]True Hate[/i] are on different ends of the spectrum.

I still disagree with your theory, however. Because you are implying that you can be intensively envious of someone you love, and that Obsession IS a type of Love. I understand that you beleive that as Love gets weaker and weaker and weaker, it eventually becomes hatred.

I disagree because you are totally disregarding indifference.. I do not beleive that a lack of love equals hate, or that a lack of hate equals love. This could easily be just indifference. But I do strongly feel that true love lacks hate, and that true hate lacks love.

Where does [B]Indifference fit into your scale?

You are arguing that Love can involved a bit of hatred, and still be love, and to me there is no such thing. ANGER is not Hatred. [i]Limitted Resentment is not automatic Hatred. For true Hatred to exist, there has to be an absense of Love. [/B]

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Interesting. So alteast we agree that Highest Love and [/i]True Hate[/i] are on different ends of the spectrum.

I still disagree with your theory, however. Because you are implying that you can be intensively envious of someone you love, and that Obsession IS a type of Love. I understand that you beleive that as Love gets weaker and weaker and weaker, it eventually becomes hatred.

I disagree because you are totally disregarding indifference.. I do not beleive that a lack of love equals hate, or that a lack of hate equals love. This could easily be just indifference. But I do strongly feel that true love lacks hate, and that true hate lacks love.

You are arguing that Love can involved a bit of hatred, and still be love, and to me there is no such thing. ANGER is not Hatred. [i]Limitted Resentment is not automatic Hatred. For true Hatred to exist, there has to be an absense of Love.

But you see I count the being that loves, not just simply the circumstance. I believe hatred is theoretical, like cold. You can't hate someone one moment and love someone else in another. It defies the idea that hatred is the absence of love. Hence the cold example. -272°C still contains heat, as little as it may be...

Originally posted by AOR
But you see I count the being that loves, not just simply the circumstance. I believe hatred is theoretical, like cold. You can't hate someone one moment and love someone else in another. It defies the idea that hatred is the absence of love. Hence the cold example. -272°C still contains heat, as little as it may be...

1) I don't understand why or how you compare love and hate, to hot and cold. One is emotional/mental/psychological, while the other set is just physical.

2) I also do not beleive that you can love and hate the SAME person.

3) I never said Hatred is the Absense of Love. Hatred REQUIRES an Absense of love. The same way LOVE requires an absense of Hate. But this love or hate has to be in regard to the same person recieving it. Not the person who is feeling it. 😉

4) So you're basically saying that the Winter is not cold 🙄

The degrees are measures of temperature, not heat. HEAT is the high culmination of those temperaturate energies, while Cold is the lessening of those energies. Cold does exist, the same way Heat Exists.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) I don't understand why or how you compare love and hate, to hot and cold. One is emotional/mental/psychological, while the other set is just physical.

2) I also do not beleive that you can love and hate the [b]SAME person.

3) I never said Hatred is the Absense of Love. Hatred REQUIRES an Absense of love. The same way LOVE requires an absense of Hate. But this love or hate has to be in regard to the same person recieving it. Not the person who is feeling it. 😉

4) So you're basically saying that the Winter is not cold 🙄

The degrees are measures of temperature, not heat. HEAT is the high culmination of those temperaturate energies, while Cold is the lessening of those energies. Cold does exist, the same way Heat Exists. [/B]

Love and Hate are based on the principals of duality, you can not have one without the other. Because of this, you CAN'T have one and AND the other. The different variances of love are wide in ranging, because love comes from the person not the situation. To conclude in this, there must be the idea that one can not posses LOVE AND HATE. One shows less love to some than to others. That does not imply the presence of hate.

I use the heat/cold as an example. Winter, is too general. As winter is time of seasons not necessarily a range in temperatures. The Caribbean and north Atlantic both experience winters. It has nothing to do with the difference of temperatures. Only days on a calender. However the point I am getting is cold is defined as

Feeling no warmth; uncomfortably chilled.

The definition of temperature all regards the measurement of heat. Be it through kinetic motion in a molecule, or the actual feeling of warmth in an object/living being. However there is much symbolism in the use of heat/cold and love/hate. Love is usually described as a warmth towards a person. Where passion is most like a fire, empty love is like a fire dying out. As one grows in "lack of love", they begin to "loose heat". Like in my general theory of the transition of love to hate. The lack of love, just like the lack of heat, leads to hate. But hatred is not reached until the PERSON not the moment is in the complete absence of love. Until that POINT in time is reached that person can not HATE.

This is all, of course my opinion. It is well founded and supported scientifically, and will not be easily discouraged. Your argument lies simply in the definition of words, and very washy examples. Of course all this in my opinion. I am not criticising solely on the idea of criticism. I only wish to point out, that I will of course lean towards my ideas, only because you fail to explain yourself properly.

Originally posted by AOR
Love and Hate are based on the principals of duality, you can not have one without the other. Because of this, you CAN'T have one and AND the other. The different variances of love are wide in ranging, because love comes from the person not the situation. To conclude in this, there must be the idea that one can not posses LOVE AND HATE. One shows less love to some than to others. That does not imply the presence of hate.

Chaos and Order are based on Duality. They are opposites, yet need eachother to exist, the balance must be there.

However, Love and Hate do not need eachother to exist at all.

Here's my stance/beleif:

1) Every individual person is capable of loving someone and hating someone.

2) Every individual person is capable of having feelings of love and hate at the same time for different people.

3)No Individual person is capable of having both love and hate for the same person at the same time

4) You can love a person one time in your life, and hate that same person later on in life. But you cannot hate and love that same person at the same time.

Any further objecting opinions?