Perhaps we should, it has been a while. However, consistency will probably fade again. There are so many recycled arguments it hurts the brain and then there are the wannabe experts (of wikipedia quoting).
Your post expressed an excellent point; your absolutely correct, the presentation by William Lane Craig was utterly silent on the issue—that God Himself demands a Creator, since nothing wills itself into being! At first glance, this issue seems to be an impossible challenge to tackle, but it surprisingly has a simple solution.
First, as stated in the Bible, God is external—having no beginning and no end.
Second, God is transcendent of space-time dimensions and is not governed by the laws of physics that you and I are. To be worded loosely: God is "outside of the box." Pushing the envelope further, we can conclude that God—since He is not governed by the laws of physics in which He created—does not require a creator. And, being eternal, goes without saying.
If we assume, for a moment, however, that God did—in fact—require a creator, we would embark on a mathematical (and metaphysical) absurdity; let me explain. If God created the cosmos, than what agent (or agency) created the God that created the cosmos and so forth? In line with this method of reasoning, it creates more problems than it solves! Somewhere down the line, "something"—a Supreme being—must be eternal!"
The most simplistic solution—in my view—is that Almighty God is eternal, and is not restricted—governed—by the laws of physics in which He created. God is more intelligent and powerful, than the human mind could ever come to terms with. That, in itself, is the definition of God.
Last edited by ushomefree on Sep 29th, 2007 at 11:51 PM
Surely that can't seem logical to you. Simply imagining a creator that needs no creator isn't enough to make it true. Aquinas famously used causality to "prove" God (his Cosmological argument, also referred to as the Watchmaker argument), but offered no explanation for the cause of God, because Christians take that for granted. And if his entire being is "beyond time and physics" then it should also be logically impossible for him to affect time and physics. He'd be impotent to create or affect the universe (which it seems He is, since we have no evidence for otherworldly involvement in the development of the universe, though of course ID theorists would have you think otherwise).
To claim, "God just is," blindly, would lack persuasive power to reconcile the notion that God does not require a Creator; I agree, but you grossly over simplified my argument. And, despite all inquiries on my part, I have never read material—though you may have?—authored by advocates of intelligent design, proposing such insufficient claims as you state—God just is! Did you read my post carefully?
well i for one believe in multiple universes/dimensions. such tyhat in ne world you choose one thing in another you choose the other choice. so that there are infinite universes constantly splitting off everychoice we make. therefore i believe that one of em has a god in there. somewhere..........
Two things. I felt Digi's summary of your argument was rather valid. If he was so incorrect, you could have easily authored a real response instead of saying "you misinterpreted."
Secondly, if you support intelligent design and have read works supporting it then you lack the knowledge to properly comprehend biological questions. The everyday person discussing issues of science is like appointing your neighbor attorney general and expecting him to do a good job.
I read it completely. Your first statement is that he's without beginning or ending. I think "He just is" summarizes that nicely. And your second point was that he's outside the bounds of our laws, and I explained why that presents more problems for a God hypothesis, not less.
And for your first point, you rely on Biblical support for your reasoning ("the Bible says he is eternal"). Ok, but that requires a defense of the Bible as historically and scientifically accurate, both of which get called into sharp question once you realize how many earlier traditions Christianity borrowed from, and how the scientific knowledge was severely lacking when it was written...heck, the only way 90% of Christians believe any of it these days is because denominations keep re-interpreting it as metaphor, not literal fact.
nellinator i was stating one of my personal beliefs. im not forcing a theory upon you persay, more like introducing it. if you dont like it great. not my prob. not one of the things i can prove in anyway can i?
how bout this you prove the existance of god ill prove the existance of the multiverse.
Or how about we don't pretend that absence of proof is proof is absence and leave it at that?
I think this could possibly have been a burn on many people. I am undecided.
Anyway, I think it's a pretty far-fetched theory without some kind of empirical evidence supporting it. I've heard of it before, but it's nothing more than a theory until we have some way of testing it. Multiple universe theories that involve contraction of our current universe with multiple Big Bangs, or "bubble" universes forming inside black holes, at least have plausible explanations. Yours, at the moment, does not.
Ok then, fair enough. Just be careful. It's ok to have a theory that seems interesting. But lots of things are possible, only a few theories are probable. Santa Claus is technically possible...but, well, I think you see where this example's going. People like to fall into the trap of believing things that are possible but not likely, simply because they are comforting or exciting. Most paranormal phenomenon (psychics, telekinetics, dowsing, remote viewing, etc.) and also many religions (and even scientific theories occasionally) can attribute their success to this.
ya well, im just saying it would be interesting. i can think of a few wierd situations with that theory of mine. such as going into another universe where the only difference was brushing or not brushing your teeth. so that when yu go to the other universe the you from the parralel universe comes into yours and its the exact same place.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 29th, 2007 03:43 PM
to everyone else.
