Conspiracy theory belief - a crutch for the weak?

Originally posted by Deano
thats what you think. theres a big difference. you didnt prove anything.

i never said i believed that aliens built the pyramids, but i am open to the possibility, and i try to put points across that can help others to be open minded. and do you ever think that your history books might be wrong? why do you take them as gospal?

you are lying when you say you have shown posts to be misleading. only once have you done that, and that was to a ramdon thread i posted. i never believed it or not believed it.

most of the threads i create get ignored by you when you cant counter them. most of the time you only come into a thread to mock.

as for the fireman quotes lol well you can go and listen to them if you want. they are on most of the 9/11 dvds. and thats not the only thing that helps prove that 9/11 was an inside job. the evidence is overwhelming. you just choose not to see it.

you have a belief system to desperatly defend. And your post as just proved to me that you are a master at twisting things.

thats true.Anytime I have seen a thread Deano has made about the two topics I have an interest in,the new world order and 9/11,when Deano brings up points especially about 9/11,when Kharma dog and others cant counter them,they ignore his points and engage in childish insults,but as i said before,its not just Deano they do that with,they do that with ANYBODY who cant get past the belief that it was an inside job.

You refer them to books and DVDS that document and prove it all and like Deano said,people like Kharma dog choose to ignore our points and just insult us when they have been proven their sources are wrong.With kharma dog,like Deano said,he just comes on his threads to mock him.

Deaon is correct.all you got to do to see those quotes that the firemen have said are true is just got to places like info wars and purchase the DVD'S od the live footage which took place that day and you can hear for yourself with your own ears the voices of the firefighters saying that explosives have been planted in the buildings.But like Deano said,people like Kharma dog and many others just ignore the sources that you refer them to that proves what your saying to be true and just go off and insult you which proves they are just here to troll and not learn the truth about conspiracys.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Having an open mind doesn't mean being susceptible to every outlandish suggestion that rolls around. That's called naivety. Open-minded means weighing all arguments and determining a logical conclusion, and if the insanely outlandish suggestions hold no merit, it becomes entirely reasonable to discard it.

I think that even if you have a point about KharmaDog not be able to refute everything, you should also be willing to come down from your conspiratorial pedestal when he calls you out with contradicting evidence that debunks your own.

thats just it,in the debates I have followed with him and Deano,like I said,he will refer him to DVDS that you can order to hear for yourself the statements of the firemen that very day and he never can give contradicting evidence that debunks what he is saying.Like he said,the evidence is overwhelming,its not Deanos fault that people like kharma dog chooses to ignore it and not follow up on his sources he refers him to.or cant admit it when his sources have been proven to be false.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Having an open mind doesn't mean being susceptible to every outlandish suggestion that rolls around. That's called naivety. Open-minded means weighing all arguments and determining a logical conclusion, and if the insanely outlandish suggestions hold no merit, it becomes entirely reasonable to discard it.

I think that even if you have a point about KharmaDog not be able to refute everything, you should also be willing to come down from your conspiratorial pedestal when he calls you out with contradicting evidence that debunks your own.

i dont belive in every outlandish suggestions. some theories are outlandish, but only because its different from what we have been conditioned to believe. the only wisdom is knowing we no nothing.

he never called me out and he hasnt debunked nothing.. i posted a thread i found interesting. it was some random page from a website and it turned out to be bogus. i never claimed it was true.

Originally posted by Deano
i dont belive in every outlandish suggestions. some theories are outlandish, but only because its different from what we have been conditioned to believe. the only wisdom is knowing we no nothing.

he never called me out and he hasnt debunked nothing.. i posted a thread i found interesting. it was some random page from a website and it turned out to be bogus. i never claimed it was true.

Originally posted by Mr Parker
He should have kept his mouth shut on his belief in reptillians being amongst us.Because of that,they can use that ammunition against him when he talks about real stuff that we know for sure is going on like the NWO and yeah I hate those kinda troll comments magee makes as well just because he's too afraid to look at the truth.

Ah, good old Parker. I expected nothing more than a simple restatement of what Deano said, and that is exactly what you did.

Bravo.

I'm a reptillian. Hello.

Originally posted by Deano
i dont belive in every outlandish suggestions. some theories are outlandish, but only because its different from what we have been conditioned to believe. the only wisdom is knowing we no nothing.

he never called me out and he hasnt debunked nothing.. i posted a thread i found interesting. it was some random page from a website and it turned out to be bogus. i never claimed it was true.

So are you backing down by saying you never claimed certain things were true? Then why give people a hard time who pose legitimate questions and counter-arguments to the ideas?

Also, if you're pulling information from "random pages" as you put it, your own sources can be called sharply into question. So even as you accuse others of blindly accepting that which they're told (which they aren't, if they bother to form an opinion about it based on critical analysis) at the same time the same question of validity of information could be directed at you.

Be careful what you read and watch, sure. But suggesting a non-belief in vast amounts of material based on a perceived conspiracy is, at best, needlessly paranoid, since it paints all forms of mainstream media in such broad generalized strokes without looking in depth at the actual sources and material, much of which is credible.

Being skeptical works both ways. It doesn't mean being open to conspiracies or not open to them. It means analyzing arguments, sources, and information from both sides to determine what is right. Otherwise, you're no better than, say, a Christian who believes their religion without making themselves aware of the best arguments against both Christianity and theism in general, and merely reinforces their own belief with material that agrees with their world view. Maybe they're right, but they never properly investigate both sides.

Originally posted by J-Beowulf
Ah, good old Parker. I expected nothing more than a simple restatement of what Deano said, and that is exactly what you did.

Bravo.

Originally posted by Magee
I always assumed people like deano had personality disorders which is the reason they believe in such outlandish theories. Like you said because it makes them feel special, like they know some thing others don't which is a classic sign of schizophrenic tendencies.

Schizophrenia is not what you are thinking of my chum herbdance

Anyway I'm still not sure on my opinions on conspiracy theorists. The ones who believe every single conspiracy are a bit deluded, but the ones who speculate on a few fairly reasonable conspiracies (NWO, 9/11 etc.) seem to actually believe what they are saying, and so are at least rational (in some sense).

Originally posted by Deano
he never called me out and he hasnt debunked nothing

A little history for Digi (and a reminder to Deano) regarding some of Deano's posting history and misc. bullsh*t:

As for Calling you out:

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Deano
and kharma am i going to have to go back into the many many many times you posted false statements, distorted information, outright lies and shakey sources? you believe the government version of events. NUFF SAID.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Please do. Please post any false statements or distorted information or outright lies that I have posted. PLease also (as I do when I call you on your bullsh*t) back your argument up with solid information.

I look forward to you doing this. But there better be:
A/ a few examples
B/ no backing your arguments up from conspiracy websites
C/ direct references and quotes from me with no creative editing.
D/ an effort to show the validity or lack of credibility of both my sources and the sources you choose to back your info up.

I wager that you back down or fail to make a good case.

See more here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8458567&highlight=General+forumid%3A70+userid%3A22894#post8458567

and here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8495406&highlight=General+forumid%3A70+userid%3A22894#post8495406

See also the following:

The “Prof Sam Chang” incident where Deano is called out on posting more misinformation, at which point he cops out….again:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=437064&pagenumber=1

Calling Deano out on his ridiculous posts, Deano gives glib answers as his points are pretty much crap. (This goes on for a few pages)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=415603&pagenumber=43

Here is Deano getting caught in a blatant lie and looking incredibly stupid:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7659677&highlight=General+forumid%3A70+userid%3A22894#post7659677

Here I Deano bulls*ts again, gets caught, gets called out, and runs…..again.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=467952&pagenumber=1

Deano is proven wrong, can’t accept it and then tries to talk his way out of it, then never posts (runs)….again.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=457846&pagenumber=1

Deano beaten down by logic again:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=9250650&highlight=forumid%3A70+userid%3A22894#post9250650

Deano unable to make or counteract any point whatsoever:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8712871&highlight=forumid%3A70+userid%3A22894#post8712871

In this thread Deano hangs his argument b posting stupid pics, yet won’t admit the obvious.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=447342&pagenumber=2

Stunning counter Arguments by Deano and others:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=445613&pagenumber=1

More of the same
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=444881&pagenumber=1

lulz.

It seems his default escape plan is either to claim you never proved him wrong, or to assert that "it's interesting but I'm not saying it's true". It's clear he either believes most of it, or wants to, so the latter is patently false by any stretch of the imagination. He mistakes the conspiracy forum for a "post any random theory" forum...without bothering to empirically research the sources he's citing, as well as the conspiracies he believes.

If (big if) there are some threads of his that have merit, they end up buried beneath mountains of crap that ruins any credibility he might have had.

If I were re-starting this forum, I'd have a set of rules that made these ideas explicit, and a lot of his stuff would end up closed. Of course, I wouldn't have made the forum in the first place (such paranoid pandering to human credulity that you get in this forum from lots of people is rarely beneficial) but that's not my decision to make.

The thing is, there could be some good discussions in here. But it seems that the mere hint of anything conspiracey related brings out the idiots making this a wasteland barren of logic with only a few oasises of hope and common sense.

It offers less to indulge my curiosity and interest than it does to entertain me at the basest of levels. But it's a guilty pleaseure that I do enjoy.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
The thing is, there could be some good discussions in here. But it seems that the mere hint of anything conspiracey related brings out the idiots making this a wasteland barren of logic with only a few oasises of hope and common sense.

It offers less to indulge my curiosity and interest than it does to entertain me at the basest of levels. But it's a guilty pleaseure that I do enjoy.

Meh, I just feel like the good discussions would be so few and far between (as we see) that it's really not feasible to ever have a forum like this that doesn't end up being nothing but crap. There's good and bad to any section on KMC, but whereas most other forums promote some interest or hobby (games, movies, comics, artwork, etc.) this is promoting either naive reactionary credulity or just plain paranoia. It's not really productive in that sense, especially when the nature of the forum lends itself to speculation, not empirical research.

I don't mind taking part in discussion now and then in this forum, but it's definitely among my least favorites due to both the content and intent.

I actually might have had an idea that is very much related to KharmaDog's original point.

Memes are units of information that are replicated within the brain. Basically they are ideas, and they travel from brain to brain "replicating" themselves. Some have stronger staying power....a Beatles song as opposed to a one-hit wonder, for instance. Or the concept of memes, which someone may not know about, is being transferred from my mind to his via these words.

Memes are also stronger if they "work together." Religion is a good example. You are more likely to find a meme for "free will" in the mind of someone who also possesses the "belief in Christian God" meme. They support one another, and the two are packaged in the group (meme-complex) that we conveniently label "Christianity." Such cooperation strengthens the adherence of a person to certain memes/ideas.

One step further (we get to conspiracies eventually): Some memes are self-actualizing. "Faith" is a good example. Faith is belief without evidence, and for many people this is a virtue....because it's built into the idea (meme) of faith. The less evidence for their belief, the stronger the faith has to be, and thus more holy or virtuous. It prides itself on the lack of evidence, or at least does not need evidence to maintain itself. Few memes are like this, but they exist. A person whose faith-meme is deeply rooted will never waver from it, because its very nature resists attempts to dislodge it.

Jump to conspiracies. Deano seems to be the poster child for much of this because of his prominence here (and I feel somewhat bad about that, since I've never had personal quarrel with him) but I'm speaking more to conspiracy theorists in general than him specifically.

"Conspiracies exist" is a meme, and one that seems to me like it has the potential to be as powerfully self-actualizing as blind faith. If you believe in the conspiracy, others telling you contrary opinions will fall on deaf ears, regardless of their strength. If a "most don't realize it and are sheep and/or slaves to the system" meme (or something similar) accompanies the main conspiracy meme, the two will strengthen each other, and differing opinions may actually have the opposite affect on a person by making them believe it all the more. The meme-complex is so focused on the idea that the theorist is right, conspiracies exist, and contradictory evidence is incidental and not "true," that the person will not waver from their position, because the meme values adherence to it regardless of anything else.

It's entirely possible for people to become so obsessed with a particular meme or meme-complex that they lose sight of all else (including reason). I believe the label for them is memeoids. There are doubtless even more insidious memes/ideas that such people possess that I cannot even imagine, all of which strengthen their resolve and beliefs. In that sense, a Bible-thumping evangelical Christian and a conspiracy theorist (who may believe nothing about organized religion) are not so far removed from one another.

I borrowed a few ideas from Richard Dawkins' essay "Viruses of the Mind," as well as ideas and words from other meme theorists, but the connection to conspiracy theorists was my own.

Holy crap! An intelligent, well thought out and interesting post in the conspiracy forum. It's a fricken' dream come true.

In all seriousnes, excellent post digi. Worth looking into and investigazting more.

Most interesting, in regards to this forum, are the following quotes:
"Some memes are self-actualizing"

"If you believe in the conspiracy, others telling you contrary opinions will fall on deaf ears, regardless of their strength. If a "most don't realize it and are sheep and/or slaves to the system" meme (or something similar) accompanies the main conspiracy meme, the two will strengthen each other, and differing opinions may actually have the opposite affect on a person by making them believe it all the more."

Heh, thanks. Meme theory in general is pretty interesting stuff, and this seemed directly related to Dawkins' article that I mentioned, which focused on blind faith, and its likeness to a virus. The similarities come with the fact that the meme seeks to replicate itself, and is sturdily immune to most outside forces that would seek to displace it.

Conspiracies in general shouldn't be investigated with a paranoid agenda or a confirmation bias that lends itself to selectively interpreting data. This leads to obvious dilutions of the truth, or even of reasonable estimates that we can and can't make based on the information available to us. Conspiracy theorists would do better to fancy themselves as a very loose form of scientist, investigating claims scientifically...which would include repeated trials free from bias (as much as is possible), and exposure to contradictory evidence.

Ironically, the objective nature required for that kind of testing makes the majority of conspiracy theorists the least qualified to investigate them, which is a large part of the reason I'm not a huge fan of this forum. Amusing, certainly, but the very idea of "conspiracy" and the regular concepts associated with it, ensure that objectivity will be at a minimum.

That is spot on and can be applied perfectly to a few conspiracy nuts in here, really interesting read that.

A strong person who can think for himself will research into these conspiracies and then find the truth about our reality today.

A weak person will tell you they are fairytales, afraid of losing their entire beliefsystem over night.

So the title of this topic should be the other way around:

Weak person lets the world dictate his thoughts.
Strong person finds the truth by himself.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
So are you backing down by saying you never claimed certain things were true? Then why give people a hard time who pose legitimate questions and counter-arguments to the ideas?

Also, if you're pulling information from "random pages" as you put it, your own sources can be called sharply into question. So even as you accuse others of blindly accepting that which they're told (which they aren't, if they bother to form an opinion about it based on critical analysis) at the same time the same question of validity of information could be directed at you.

Be careful what you read and watch, sure. But suggesting a non-belief in vast amounts of material based on a perceived conspiracy is, at best, needlessly paranoid, since it paints all forms of mainstream media in such broad generalized strokes without looking in depth at the actual sources and material, much of which is credible.

Being skeptical works both ways. It doesn't mean being open to conspiracies or not open to them. It means analyzing arguments, sources, and information from both sides to determine what is right. Otherwise, you're no better than, say, a Christian who believes their religion without making themselves aware of the best arguments against both Christianity and theism in general, and merely reinforces their own belief with material that agrees with their world view. Maybe they're right, but they never properly investigate both sides.

no ones perfect. thats the point here. my gripe is with people who continue to ignore the evidence thats staring them right in front of there eyes.

the main concerns:

centrilastion of power
world government
cashless society
increased surveilanc
manipulated wars
microchipped people

people need to open there eyes up to those problems instead of pouncing on other members of the forum.

centrilastion of power - bound to happen as a society technologically advances

world government - see above, as the world grows smaller, it begins to fall under an increasingly larger umbrella

cashless society - the very basis of the world economy is absurd. whether you pass a note to receive a bag of milk or run a card through a machine that reads a magnetic strip, it makes no nevermind. The idea of our economy is based on a mutual agreement on perceived worth. I find that idea, in an of itself, absurd.

increased surveilance - is a direct result of people's need to feel more secure in a world that seems increasingly hostile

manipulated wars- ALL WARS IN ALL OF HISTORY HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED. Your inability to see that, or conveniently disregard that to suit your purpose makes you either blindingly stupid, or willingly naive.

microchipped people - I don't see it happening.

Deano, your concerns are for the most part, bullsh*t. You rag on about human sacrifices, alien reptiles, secret societies and fictioious organizations. You wrap the basic truth that people suck in a myriad of dellusions to better help you cope in a world that you find truly scarey.

It's simple, people strive for wealth and power, be they Petsian kings, Viking raiders, or wealthy business men. They generally don't care about the little people that they step on and they are too concerneed with their own wealth and success to try and form a united front with other rich and powerful people who have their own goals, hence war.

The world is a scary place because people treat people like sh*t. You try and make it seem scarier because it's easier for you to deal with the fiction more than the reality.