Yeah that was his final test to becoming a dark lord of the sith, and that is exactly what he became. That does not prove Sidious wanted Maul as his successor.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
the reason i asked this question was because in darth maul sadow hunter he was said to be powerful in the darkside of the force and i once hread someone say that he manipulate obi-wan emotion when they fought in the The Phantom Menace.
Registered: Aug 2008
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^ I still think that. Younger, probably faster, stronger, master of multiple high end forms, master of several martial arts, evidently a 'wizard' with the Force...
Dooku thrashed Kenobi with the force, who I consider on par with TPM Qui Gon Jinn. Maul could never do that with Kenobi or Jinn, he dueled both of them but never KO'd one with the force. Dooku would destroy Maul with the force, and beat him in Sabers
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Uh, did he try? No. Okay then.
Besides that, Dooku's Force Lightning has been caught via a lightsaber blade by Obi-Wan and Anakin. Maul could do that. Hell, he might even be able to walk right through it.
Dooku's lightning has also been show to KO Asajj Ventress knocking her out for several hours. And Anakin used two hands to block Dooku's lightning from one hand. Dooku when actually putting a lot of power into it knocked out Ventress with ease.
Mizukage is in the rare position of being right, Enyalus. While an argument could be made that Darth Maul -- with his "high end mastery of multiple forms," his physical conditioning and regimen that have "been pushed to the utmost," and that he is "one of the most highly trained apprentices in history," -- can defeat Count Dooku in a lightsaber contest, there can be no question that the Count has demonstrated feats well in excess of Maul's Force aptitude. That Maul "walked through" Force lightning from Mighella is one thing; while she has been credited as a highly disciplined and skilled Nighsister, she is no match for a Lord of the Sith. Meanwhile, Count Dooku's lightning is capable of gripping Anakin Skywalker and hurling him across the room, killing multiple warriors, and knocking Sora Bulq -- one of the Order's finest swordsmen and a master of all of the lightsaber forms -- out without effort.
Whereas Maul has been cited as one of the "deadliest" and "highest trained" Sith apprentices, Count Dooku has been cited as "one of the most powerful and respected Jedi in the Order's twenty five thousand year history" and "an even greater Lord of the Sith."
Maul fed off Obiwan's emotions as Obiwan says in JvS
When the last door lifted,I gave in to my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
Ventress is nothing special, so says Palpatine. And judging from the way Yoda casually dismisses her, he's right.
You've got a real soft sport for this whole "Force aptitude" thing, Gideon. Of course Dooku has more precision and *probably* a better command of the Force. Does that necessarily make a difference in a battle? No. There are several instances of someone with greater mastery of the Force losing to someone else who is younger and/or a better lightsaber duelist. I believe Maul is exactly that. He was able to easily defeat Dooku's best padawan (then a Jedi Master) who was a lightsaber prodigy himself as well as his padawan (who was essentially a Jedi Knight) simultaneously - despite not being 100% (he was injured prior to the battle). He was also able to defeat Anoon Bondara, who like Maul was a master of Teras Kasi as well as a more technically skilled duelist than the Count.
Your example of Anakin being thrown across the room by Dooku's lightning, in my opinion, is a reach at best. Anakin was a hothead in that battle who rushed in without thinking and was in no position to defend himself when Dooku's gout of lightning shot out. Do we even know if he knew that the Count could launch such an attack? Maul wouldn't be so ignorant or foolish. He's a bred and trained warrior and killer. In the Clone Wars movie Anakin casually catches Dooku's lightning on his blade using one hand. In AOTC Obi-Wan does the same, when ready for it. And Yoda's able to casually deflect it back at him with minimal effort. Dooku's Force advantage shouldn't be overblown here - it failed to give him an advantage over Anakin in AOTC the second time, it failed to give him an advantage over Mace in their duel, it failed to give him an advantage over Anakin in ROTS, and if Anakin hadn't attempted to use the Force against him in the Clone Wars movie it would have been a nonfactor there as well.
Maul doesn't even like using the Force to fight his battles. He won't force the issue, especially with someone who is his superior in that regard. Elite Hunter also brings up a valid point. Maul's use of Juyo allows him to feed on the dark emotions of the opponent to fuel himself and grow stronger. Dooku's a dark sider. That should be case closed...
Nothing special compared to him and other select upper tier combatants. If his words are to be trusted, when he observes her duel with Count Dooku, he finds her "impressive."
Again, Yoda tells her that she's "not that strong" when she threatens him. Duh. But he prefaces this with "strong, you are in the dark side."
A soft sport? I assure you, I take no athleticism from Force aptitude.
There is no 'probably.' Count Dooku has received accolades from the various narrators, characters, and databank regarding his connection and mastery of the Force. Darth Maul, instead, receives accolades for his physical discipline and combat regimen. Add to the fact that Dooku has studied the Force for seven decades and regularly utilizes it in combat, I'd say that it's a no brainer. But I've overestimated you before.
You really didn't just ask me if a great command of the Force makes a difference, did you?
Except that there's nothing that proves that those circumstances would recreate themselves.
But can you prove that?
Easily? Provide the source, please. While he certainly dominated them, it wasn't effortless.
And Yoda. Is it your testimony that Maul could beat him? The difference between Bondara and Dooku is that only one of them possesses a truly remarkable command of the Force.
He did the same thing to Sora Bulq. This Sora Bulq:
"Sora Bulq was one of the greatest lightsaber instructors the Jedi order had ever known, perfecting the various forms of combat techniques, both classical and experimental. He even helped Mace Windu perfect the art of vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat so intense and dangerous, that to practice it was to tread perilously close to the dark side." -- the official databank.
Welcome to reality. Maul hasn't battled Dooku before. If they fight, he hasn't the means to know what the Count can and cannot do.
You're right. He demonstrates great brilliant in perpetuity. Like getting bisected by a padawan.
And historically impatient and arrogant. Have you read Shadow Hunter or the Phantom Menace?
So a bullet isn't deadly since Kevlar protects against it?
What are you talking about? He beat Anakin.
Did he attack Windu with the Force?
Did he attack Anakin with the Force?
WTF? Prove it.
Right. Because Dooku can only use the Force when his opponent does? Maul would only be even more susceptible.
And he'll magically detect that Dooku is his superior?
He's able to feed on the anger of an undisciplined Jedi who dabbled, briefly, in dark temptations. A far cry from Count Dooku.
Sidious and Dooku believed her to be a legitimate threat to Anakin Skywalker's life; he barely overcame her in a "stunning lightsaber duel."
She's also outmatched Kenobi rather severely on at least one occasion, immediately after defeating Kit Fisto, one of the most formidable swordsmen in the Jedi Order.
Her Force power was sufficient enough to nearly crush the heart of an ancient and powerful Jedi Master, and she almost replicated the feat on Kenobi on one of the moons of Naboo. Also, I believe she noted that she'd killed seventeen Jedi in Dark Rendezvous. The only individuals of her era to rack up such a body count were General Grievous and the newly converted Darth Vader.
And this reflects poorly on Dooku, who derided his student's chosen form of combat to begin with?
Dooku toyed with Master Tholme and Sora Bulq:
Two hands. He also gets put on his ass three times.
You mean when he won inside of a minute anyway?
And he still got away...
He kicks him to the ground without even looking at him while simultaneously hurling Kenobi across the room.
He outmaneuvers him with one hand and Force-pushes him to the ground just before the end.
Which is why he'd get his ass kicked against Dooku. Just because he's not willing to "force the issue" doesn't mean the Count wouldn't if he feels at all threatened.
There's a reason that Dooku couldn't pull this off? It's what dark-siders do.
And it's not because of Juyo; I don't know where you came up with that. Mace Windu's Vaapad =/= anyone else's Juyo.
Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Drinking gasoline. Pissing napalm.
And that means what, Gideon? Interpret it for me.
Maul is said to be very strong in the Force as well as a wizard with the Force (whatever the **** that's supposed to mean). While I'm of the personal opinion that Dooku is superior in that department, it can't be proven. Unless you can find me a statement saying that, "Dooku's command of the Force surpassed that of Sidious' former apprentice, Darth Maul." Hence, I said probably (to cover my ass).
Anakin beating Dooku. Luke beating Vader. Two examples of Force users who have superior command of the Force being beaten by those who don't. Let's add Obi-Wan beating Darth Maul to that list, probably Bane over Sirak, Palpatine beating Yoda, and I'm sure you can come up with even more examples than I can.
And please stop attempting to misquote me. I specified a better (not great) command of the Force doesn't necessarily make a difference in battle. That is different from what you're attempting to get me to say.
Okay?
Of course not. Can you prove that Dooku's a better duelist than Maul? I wouldn't think so. I realize that Dooku taught General Grievous all seven lightsaber forms, but does anything ever specifically call him a master of every saber form?
I did misstype, though. I should have said 'combatant' as opposed to duelist, because I think that Maul's use of Teras Kasi in combat would make a big difference.
In my opinion, 'dominating' someone would make it easy. If he was able to barely beat them or struggled to defeat them, I'd call that 'difficult' or 'hard.'
I agree. And of course Maul couldn't defeat Yoda. But then Yoda is also well above Dooku thanks to his Force reserves, Force power, and speed (although we disagree there, because you think it comes from superior command of the Force).
This proves very little, Gideon. As I can cite Anoon Bondara or Cin Drallig. Being a great duelist won't guarantee that you can compete with the 'big boys' so to speak. A Dark Lord of the Sith qualifies as that.
...Gideon. Come now. Maul is a Sith Lord. He'll know Dooku is a Sith Lord if they fight. He's fought Darth Sidious before. And trained and sparred with him practically all of his life. That doesn't compare to Anakin, who had Obi-Wan to spar with.
Meh, after he beat him. Palpatine noted that that was out of character for Maul.
Not the TPM novelization. But during the TPM duel, he shows great combat savvy and patience. Arrogant, yes. But what Sith Lord isn't? I think Dooku might have him beat in that category, as well.
In a duel. His Force prowess didn't play a role at all. You'd think he could ragdoll a padawan Anakin like he did to Obi-Wan in ROTS and get out of there quicker, before Yoda arrived. Instead, he defeats him in a difficult duel in which he was fatigued afterwards. (You can see him visibly exhale/sigh, a look of surprise on his face.)
Exactly my point. His superiority in the Force played no role in that battle.
And again...answer is above. Although the novelization does say that he attacks him with the Force, and Anakin slaps the objects hurled at him aside with distain.
Anakin deals with his lightning easily. Anakin decides to Force Push him later on, and Dooku counters - tossing it back at him and putting him on his ass. It was Anakin who forced the issue there and paid the price.
Sure. Why not? He's somehow blind to the Force now? He can't sense someone more powerful in the Dark Side than him? That's absurd.
Count Dooku is calm in his duels, mind centered on positive thoughts?
And yet he still finds her ultimately useless. She is a non-issue in Palpatine's plans. (I think. I'm open to sources...)
This could be taken to refer to many things. 'Strong with the dark side' has been used as a measure of 'evilness' in the past.
Palpatine: Anakin, go kill all of the Jedi [paraphrasing obviously]- Only then will you be strong enough in the dark side to save your wife.
Yoda meant that she was very evil (committed to the D.S. and would be difficult to redeem) but was not necessarily strong in the Force itself. There is a distinction.
Have a heart- it was only a simple typo. Also, here's the mandatory return attack: [d-bag] That's obvious- you don't take any at all! [!11!!11111!!11][/d-bag].
I don't actually have time for the rest, and most of the rest has already been bypassed. This is just my take on Yoda's comment.
Post write edit: The apostrophe on "Palpatine's" gave me this:Palpatine%27s', event)" style="cursor: pointer;color:#cc6600;font-weight:bold;">Palpatine's p[...] when I previewed it. Anyone know what it means?
I'll get to this ASAP, but between a Halo 3 match and going to deal with inevitable arguments from Ush, REX, and Truejedi, I'm going to have a busy night.
Bear in mind that those who jump on this particular bandwagon will be inexorably hurled off it. The road, Red Nemesis, is bumpy.
Oct 5th, 2008 09:30 PM
