Master Crimzon
Baby Killer
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
As opposed to all those other religions that say, "Hey folks we're a nice alternative but those other people could be right."?
As I've said; Judaism caused far less destruction than Islam or Christianity. That being said, it did- due to the feeling of self-importance- bring much of the destruction upon itself, due to lack of efforts to integrate into the mainstream community.
Of course the actions committed by the other religions are far more evil and destructive. But the Jewish attitude is far from saintly.
Originally posted by Mindship
I understand all of what you're saying. Yes, Biblically speaking, the Jews have been favored. I only maintain that it's because the Jewish people were assigned a special task: this is what made them favored. Nothing inherent/decided by God beforehand. Just, somebody had to be picked. To see otherwise: that would be self-glorification. A truly pious individual does not see him/herself as superior, regardless of task assigned. If anything, they humble themselves before the weight of their responsibility.
That's not the 'Jewish attitude' (hey, I've invented a new term! 😛). Yeah, you're one of the Jews who does not see themselves as superior, which is great. You're not the source of the problem. Y'see, the Bible- at least the old (and Jewish) one- maintains the idea that God favors the Jews over other religions. Why is that? Because of a promise made by Abraham. They were in a sense, given a task, but I am operating on the belief that the Bible is a fictional book written by a fallible mortal. If this is true, than clearly what that person teaches is that Judaism is a task from god, and committing that task made them superior to other religions. So it's as thus; if you're a practicing Jew, you get treatment above other people.
The events in the book of Judges supports what I am trying to say. It is basically a singular book divided into multiple 'serialized' stories with virtually the same plot; the Jews have control of Israel, they sin, an invader attacks, conquers Israel, the Jews pray, God sends a human being (a Judge) to unite the Israelis and kill the invader. As you can see, the plot is as I've described above; the moment they start sinning, they lose God's favor, but the instant they start practicing Judaism again, God essentially kills the invader for them. Directly showing bias in favor of Jews.
The departure of the slaves from Egypt is also an example. While what God did was clearly just, think about it... after the Israelis crossed the desert, they were given God's power to kill the current inhabitants of Israel and make it their own country.
The Bible constantly maintains, implies, and displays the superiority of the 'Believing Jew' over other people.
Originally posted by Mindship
Interesting you should mention that. Maimonedes' idea was that since Judaism doesn't proselytize, it had to 'transform' in a way. Christianity and Islam, therefore, became like Judaism's missionary arms, reaching out to spread the Word (albeit, not in the nicest fashion).
Yeah. Religious conquest is ultimately religion's biggest problem and fault.
Originally posted by Mindship
My only comment here is that the final responsibility for a person's behavior (or group of people) rests with that person/group. Eg, Could the Jews have done more to protect themselves during, say, the Holocaust, as in pretending to be Christian? Absolutely. But their pride (and their sense of 'being special'😉 discouraged them from doing so. But the final responsibility for Germany's behavior rests with Germany.
Of course Germany's problem lies with Germany. What the Nazis did is assault a helpless minority, simply because they made an easy scapegoat.
The problem with the Jews... they made it too easy to cast them as the scapegoat. They constantly displayed themselves as a separate society, refusing to merge or to associate with the mainstream German people. Why? Well, the Bible certainly encourages the beliefs the Jews will always get special treatment, and that their way is the right way and the way of god. This leads to a possible feeling of superiority among the Jews.
You want a modern example of the Jewish superiority complex? One of my teachers- who I, incidentally, have great respect for (despite his clear right-wing views)- noted that the Jews always had a disproportionate amount of people within the intellectual and influential subjects of the world; philosophy, science, literature. This is very much true. Then, I asked him "So... do you honestly think Jews are smarter than everybody else?". He didn't give me a straight answer, but he did seem to imply that he considers the fact that we Jews may be smarter than everybody else. Pure bullshit.
Originally posted by Mindship
I said the Jewish people's faith in God and His Plan helped them to survive times of hardship, and that what you had posted was a more specific example of the Loving God/Suffering in the World paradox. I also maintain that given all the persecution throughout history of a small, dispersed minority, there must be something with strong survival values in Judaism, otherwise the Jews would've been wiped out long ago.
You're correct. I'll simplify my opinion on why the Jews survived so long, against tremendous odds; the keeping of the Sabbath's holiness. This created a way to keep the Jews from spreading into chaos and disorder, and create a form of unity among all of these Jews- a simple tradition kept them together as a single nation.
However, all I'm asking is thus; had the Jews converter into Christianity, or made greater attempts to merge into the mainstream society, would things have been so bad? Yes, it is possible that there would be no country of Israel at the moment. But think about the conflict it would have prevented.
Very difficult question, honestly.
Originally posted by Mindship
Clearly, as an Israeli, you have a perspective on this - and very strong feelings - that I can only understand as an American Jew. You make excellent points, but I can't help but feel your POV is mostly a reaction to all the religionism you must see. On the same token, I have my bias, perhaps viewing the story of the Jewish people (and religion in general) in a more idealistic light.
You make a lot of good points too. Pretty tough-provoking.
You know, it's funny. One would think that Israeli Jews- such as myself- would be more close to their religion than American Jews. Studied prove entirely different; American Jews are actually more religious and traditional, in general. I believe this is because that, as an Israeli, we are constantly exposed to the harmful effects of excessive religionism. So it's no wonder I'm more alienated with religion than you are.
By the way, are you actually religious? Like, devoutly religious?