Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats not the updated version of the table if you want to make new changes start with this one, but theres already another thread for that

As it's the last time I know that movements were instituted with an objective facilitator. 🙂

I read through the previous thread and no longer believe that this was the case, as it appears that certain changes were railroaded through on slim majorities without adequate time. Additionally, the opinions of "ancient" posters, like myself, were disregarded despite still being perfectly valid opinions.

Ergo, I created a thread with clear purpose and structure.

I'm also generally going to abstain from voting on any changes myself.

You're free to propose changes though. 🙂

Originally posted by Juk3n
higher than Ironfist? Lol GTFO, be gald she's in the same league as him, if there was a rating between Greatest and Unearthly he would be in it. She wouldn't as he is the highest in that Greatest catagory.

Also, to the OP, what puts Daredevil a whole tier above Black Panther (T'challa - whos been trained since birth)? Captain America isnt even a whole tier above him , they are very much considered combat piers. Whats the reasoning please?

As to whether Black Panther should move up, he would need to displace one of those currently in the top tier.

Being a top tier martial artist is meaningless unless there is an element of exclusivity to the top tier, ergo the limitation on the number within.

Oh, someone else who needs to bumped up without a doubt- "Mad Dog" Cain. He has move reading ala Batgirl, and he outclassed all but one of the assassins present (including Shrike IV (Boone) who's currently third tier) pretty badly and was able to fight with Cassandra.

Alpha should be bumped up too. He and Mad Dog were Shiva's two best students when she was training the League of Assassins, as Cassandra noted.

Both are second tier worthy. Better than the third-tiers present, but not quite a match for the first tiers when they were in good shape.

Also where would Achiles rank?

Probably second tier but not a lot of feats at this point.

Thanos, Captain Mar-Vell, Adam Warlock and Gamora should all be lowered.

I am agreed to this. Gamora can be bumped down to Uber tier- she's very good and could fight with the ones at the top, but a lot more enhanced than KK and Mantis.

Thanos, Mar-Vell, and Adam could be bumped down all the way to second tier. I don't think that sans powers they could beat the top tier ones, though they are very good.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

I'm also against Drakon being switched with Diana, especially when the argument is that Drakon's speed is offsetting his skill. Seriously? More so than Wonder Woman's speed or strength? Seriously? 😕

Yes, because Wonder Woman fights without her powers against Batman and Black Canary often, as well as others (Batman was pissed when she brought Lady Shiva to the Watchtower for practice ^^). She can turn them off to train and does so regularly.

The Connor hallway standoff is a good example with Drakon- when he was in a position where his opponent had room to react to his speed, Connor got him good even when Drakon recognized he was waiting for an opportunity. When Connor didn't have the room, he got wailed on. Constantine was all about speed but I think Connor showed more skill.

I don't see Nemesis on the list. I propose we add her to the same as Zealot.

Nemesis has less appearances, but they've been portrayed as equals in every fight, post Coda training, that I've witnessed. Charis holds no physical advantages over our favorite Kheran noblewoman and doesn't utilize an unfair weapon advantage. An argument could be made that Charis's empathy helps, but it'd be a fairly weak argument I'd say. Ultimately, I'm inclined to believe the women have equal skill. I've missed some of the more recent issues unfortunately, so those who disagree can feel free to present any contradictory events.

Nemesis to the Second Tier.

I feel like Hawkeye should move from Third to Second, but maybe I'm misjudging.

Tim Drake to second. His placement is a travesty, a travesty I say!!!

I'm not entirely clear as to why Mandarin and Temugin are placed above Iron Fist when they all have comparable feats, with Iron Fist having superior feats in some cases.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I feel like Hawkeye should move from Third to Second, but maybe I'm misjudging.

The only reason Ollie was put there at all in the first place was because he looked good against Deathstroke once, though it had more to with massive prep on his part. He also looked good against Red Hood, but since then has done nothing to deserve a Second-Tier Placement.

Hawkeye, meanwhile, has been getting more of a push in that area, especially with him running around as Ronin.

On another note, I'd also challenge placing Captain America and Wolverine in top-tier.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, because Wonder Woman fights without her powers against Batman and Black Canary often, as well as others (Batman was pissed when she brought Lady Shiva to the Watchtower for practice ^^). She can turn them off to train and does so regularly.

She holds back, yes, but that's not the same thing at all.

Starfire to second.

Originally posted by Konton
Kory defeats the entire island of Themyschera in a tournament. The queen states Kory rivals Diana in skill.

1. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rm1vf4&s=5
2. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rr6tsh&s=5
3. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dkx3pv&s=5
4. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=15ez1pj&s=5
5. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2iuxppj&s=5
6. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=16ibh1j&s=5
7. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zlumvn&s=5
8. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24azla0&s=5
9. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wsry9k&s=5

Originally posted by Accel
On another note, I'd also challenge placing Captain America and Wolverine in top-tier.

Awwww shit, you done it now.

Seconded on bumping GA down and Hawkeye up. Clint's been doing more HtH recently and GA's good melee skills were a blip.

Originally posted by Accel
A.)No, she can't and B.) no, she doesn't.

She holds back, yes, but that's not the same thing at all.

If she uses human-level speed and human level strength and still gets wins, that's pretty much the same thing.

I'm not saying they're not skilled, but it strikes me as double-standard that the two of them make the top-tier list while Deathstroke sits in the 2nd tier.

As far as physical stats go, I'd put Cap and Wolverine around Slade's level, i.e., above guys like Batman and Daredevil. The thing is though, when Slade looks good against an A-List martial artist, it's chalked up to his physical superiority. When Cap or Wolvie do the same, somehow their physical stats are left out of the equation and it's a complete skill showing.

At most, I'd say Cap and Wolvie would be at the bottom of the top-tier, but Slade probably belongs in the same ranking as those two.

edited

Black Panther (T'challa) to the same level as Cap and DD, if not, why not? And "only space for a limited amount" can take a flying leap, he's not 'just about' top tier 'on the bottom rung' he is equal to Matt and Steve period.

Originally posted by Q99
If she uses human-level speed and human level strength and still gets wins, that's pretty much the same thing.

But she doesn't, so... oh well.

I'm guilty of this as well, but I just realized that we're all only tossing out suggestions. We'll have to contribute votes as well if changes will be made.

I am against Jubilee to third although I am open to the idea. I am against Kingpin, Midnighter, and Blade to second. I don't mind if Starfire moves up, but I don't know about a second tier placement.

I have no real opinion or remain undecided on the rest.

As per my last post, I propose we add Nemesis to second tier.

Originally posted by Accel
If that were the case, you'd be right.

But she doesn't, so... oh well.

Uh, she does. They pretty clearly fight at human level.

StyleTime

I am against Jubilee to third although I am open to the idea.

She was the chief combat trainer for the New Warriors recently. I think she's third nowadays.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, she does. They pretty clearly fight at human level.

Can I retract all my existing votes? I don't remember the reasoning for any of the votes I made- they were way long ago.

I did just suggest Hawkeye to second though, and that seems to be echoed, so I'm gonna write it down so far as:

Hawkeye to second: Smurph, Accel, Q99
Green Arrow to third: Accel, Q99

How old are those proposed changes any way? I can't even remember voting one way or the other for Kingpin but it looks like the "Against" side won decidedly.

If the rest of them are just as old as that then I say it's time to consider putting them to rest. If any one else cared enough to vote for them, they would have done it by now.