-Dart tanked plenty of explosions as a Dragoon. At base he tanked several slashes from Feyrbrand, who was strong enough to knock down trees without actual effort and shake a small mountain/mesa with headbutts, ran into a haymaker from Kongol who has class 100 strength, and tanked a Final Burst attack from Melbu Zieg in Red Dragoon form.
--Of course, expect haphazard attempts at downplaying these feats as a consequence of Griever's inferiority complex that comes from his preferred choice in RPG hero being Squall, a nigh featless character, as is the sad fate of many other RPG characters. Hence his extreme reluctance to declare Auron, another nigh featless RPG character, as the loser. Gotta admire the consistency.
-Dart attacked Lloyd without any assistance in two different cutscenes. In battle, Lloyd can still dodge individual attacks in the same fashion as in the 1st disc fight, but can no longer do it anywhere near 100% of the time. Ergo this is a demonstrative improvement in relative speed. Moreso, by powerscaling Haschel reacts to and defeats someone far faster than Lloyd in a much later part of the game. Dart also tags and reacts to Dragoon form Melbu Zieg on two different occasions, someone also much higher up than Lloyd--especially in Dragoon form going by what we know of Dragoon speeds and other power ups.
Auron loses, he can't even be given feats by osmosis --just from fighting with the team--because none of the bosses they fight are demonstratively very durable to give him a plausible strength value, and none of them are demonstratively fast to give him a plausible reaction speed value etc. etc.
Once more, if a character does not have any way of knowing their strength, that doesn't mean they loose. It just means we can't say for certain who would win.
Let's not all hop on the Argument for Ignorance fallacy bandwagon like so many others on KMC...
No but we can assume that they would probably lose when faced with a character who has very good feats relative to nearly every character shown in the opposition's series.
Forgot to add; as for the class 30ish feat, as far as lifting strength there is none, but he does knock back a complete form virage, which was heavy enough to cause a floating boulder as big as itself to spin around several times when it fell on it.
^4:40-5:48
And he was able to slash into the Divine Dragon, who's head and neck alone are heavy enough to cause giant earthquake like upheavals, so its immensely dense.
^6:58-7:32
You two need to stop with the haphazard usage of the word fallacy. It sounds amateurish and in the end does not serve to better the posts.
What you say has no application here. Auron is not an unknown quantity. We have 40+ hours of knowledge of Auron from a game, knowledge of the parameters of his abilities from the explicit visuals of the game including parameters set by other characters like Tidus, Wakka and even Kimahri. What they tell us is that in terms of fictional characters he's simply not that impressive. By courtesy of believability, we get to say he's peak human, because any lower than that would not be plausible for him to complete the game's story without dying.
It would have more application if it was Dart vs some Unseen god of FFX.
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Last edited by General Kaliero on Mar 6th, 2011 at 12:40 AM
Ok, let me get this straight, Dart TANKED SEVERAL SLASHES? Dart don't have skin of steel, last I checked. He's wearing a damn broad armor and could barely BLOCK TWO HITS with his sword, he's being pushed away and being hurt by two slow claws. Did you miss the part where Dart states "ahh! I gotta do something or I'll get killed"? Feyrbrand knocked down trees in its course and with his weight, paws and then slashed a tree with all of its claws. For a monster of that size isn't so impressive to see him knocking down trees. As for Kongol, didn't Dart took a SINGLE punch and was immediately out of combat? Just asking. And show me Dart tanking Final Burst because I remember Dart commenting on the attack, but I never saw him tanking it. Either way, it's a featless attack, as it occurs in gameplay.
Dart defeated Lloyd and Melbu with the help of his teammates canonically. The only enemies Dart defeated by himself were the guys from the tournament. And I never saw Dart having 'assistance' in any cutscene after a fight anyway, so that point has no point. Your 'argument' is simply absurd, just because the rest of the party wasn't animated during the scene AFTER the fight doesn't mean they didn't help DURING the fight. It's pretty clear you're grasping at straws. The characters don't need to be animated in order to know they are present. It's a game, not Anime. Never mind the fact that the party is shown when Dart attempts to attack Lloyd in the end of the battle and they are shown also in the EXP screen. That's aside. Now, we have cutscenes of Dragoons fighting and none of them moves at Mach speed, they can be hurt by normal speed attacks, they aren't Dragon Ball Z characters. Face it, they don't possess the powers you want them to possess. And comparing Dart to Lloyd is totally ridiculous. Lloyd is a Wingly, if you played the game you should know that Winglies are far superior to humans, only Dragoons are shown to be actually rivals for them, in canon. Dart is peak human.
Hell, Wink could pretty much run between an attack to protect Lloyd and she was as fast as Dart. There's no super-speed involved AT ALL:
The Virage did some steps back because he was dying and was terribly weak after the battle, remember the entire party beat him? And then he fell once Shana emanated her light.
The only one that slashed through the Divine Dragon was Lloyd using the Dragon Buster.
And your proof for every of these points is that the characters fought bosses, so they could hurt them at some point. By that logic, Auron could hurt Sin, you know, the being who was capable of causing enormous hurricanes, gravitational problems in space as well as erasing great part of the planet in a blink of an eye. And who is like ten times bigger than the Fahrenheit. He fought it alongside the team, therefore, Auron could hurt Sin.
Auron is stronger than Tidus and it is demonstrated during their little race through monsters in Zanarkand. Auron gave a sword to Tidus, which was pretty heavy for him to even hold with both hands. It was heavy for Tidus when when we know he knocked out a Blitzball player from the Blitzball stadium several meters away. On the other hand, Auron was holding that sword as if he were holding a light stick. As for Dart, well... he couldn't bring down a broken tree with his sword because apparently 'the blade won't last with this.' He needed an AXE, and struggled when lifting it and while using it. And that happens entirely OUTSIDE GAMEPLAY whereas most of your arguments comes from gameplay stances. I wanna see what kind of excuses you will post now.
Nice way of debating. That's called Appeal To Motive. You "refute" my stance by bringing up a possible motive for my argumentation or irrelevant points such as claiming 'I like Squall', therefore I "downplay feats". Don't be so emotionally attached to videogame characters. Why don't you focus on backing up your claims instead of accusing me? Squall has nothing to do with anything and I love The Legend Of Dragoon. So stop being childish and stop taking scenes out of context, because you see a guy dodging some swords slashes then you jump to 'he has super-speed'.
And if you don't know the meaning of some fallacies nor you have enough knowledge about them, I suggest you to learn some of the most basic logical fallacies, believe me, it'll help you to at least not commit them so often.
I don't know about this Dart person but Auron did die in his game. Plus he doesn't really have a whole lot of showing that could really help his case in quite a few battles he's put in.
Trust me, Dart has this in the bag handily. Might I recommend that you pick up/download a copy of Legend of Dragoon for PSX? One of the best RPGs I've ever played.
Yo broseph. Hope you didn’t think I forgot? I’ve been having laptop (on which this post was saved whilst over half finished) troubles for the past few weeks, only got it sorted out last week or so. : )
Take a sigh of relief though, this is a busy final semester for me at uni so don’t expect to hear from me anymore. I can predict the quality of a prospective response anyway and I know its not going to be of any interest or be able to respond thoroughly. Mega Multi-post incoming.
1. Yes. Several slashes. 3 in fact. Blocked with a sword? lol. Where did you get that from? Why not actually watch the video again:
^6:00-7:05 for the Dragon's appearance all the way to Rose's intervention.
The forelimbs completely engulf the width of his body with the two opening blows, there was no parrying the length of those blows with the tip of his blade going on.
His upper arms aren't covered in armor (a moot point anyway as its standard equipment), and they easily made contact with his bare flesh there. And then the final slash hit his midsection, puts him on his knee for a moment, and then he quickly recovers to dodge another blow before Rose stepped in. Oh---you say he might have died? K. I never said otherwise. Still he took 3 hits without slowing down and went on to rush back to his hometown with no need for rest or medical aid. You know what that is? A durability feat, a very good one. He doesn't have 'skin of steel' but since when do fictional organic characters with strong durability traits ever have skin of steel?
Oh? Let's see here, a flaccid, but predictable attempt at downplaying tree knockdowns. It's not impressive for a creature that large to knock down trees? Can you give me an example of any land animal (extant or extinct) that is smaller or equal in size and no bigger, along with referring me to their tree knocking ability just so we can compare? If I'm not seeing things, I'm sure I've seen 5+ ton bull elephants (much smaller than Feyrbrand to be sure, thus fulfilling your requirement) have to actually put some effort into uprooting trees that are much smaller and thinner? Such as here?
I might also be imagining it, but isn't this 35 ton bulldozer pushing down much thinner trees than Feyrbrand with quite a bit more struggle?
And here's a 40tonish dozer knocking down a tree that's not as solid as the one's Feyrbrand knocked down, AND its already softened up with all that dirt dug up from around the roots. And most random of all, here's a friggin 24ish ton tank (owned by a civilian??) knocking down some thin trees with less ease than Feyrbrand...yes, I know what you're thinking, that is a ridiculously bizarre and totally awesome video.
And forgive me if I'm mistaken, but are we not talking in absolute terms here?--i.e. Does it actually matter if Feyrbrand might not be some pound for pound champ at tree knocking events?
Because the end result is Dart taking casual tree dropping shots, regardless of whether it comes from a 10 foot monster or a 20 foot monster. He knocked down at least two trees with sheer weight as you say, but that's a good thing. It means he never had to make any sort of extra muscular effort to actually do it, he simply walks into them and they fall as a consequence of the contact. He's that heavy, and these are thick trees to boot. Him having the musculature needed to move a body that weighs that much is a strength feat in and of itself, let alone being able to move fast enough to chase a tiny human through a dense forest and not be slowed down in the chase by the trees in the way. Thank you for inadvertently highlighting this fact. And the last tree (third one) he knocked down was him attempting to slash Dart, missing, and then easily toppling the tree with some minor up and down flailing of his mantis-esque forelimbs. Basically, it was a needless effort to downplay something just for the sake of downplaying it. Twas unnessecary as my recounting of it was completely accurate. Trees are the lower end anyway--I see you weren't able to mention the fact that he was also shown to be strong enough to shake a tiny mountain/mesa with headbutts? Oh, and before you try to low ball again (such as with the ridiculous Dart tree cutting example that you use later on, which I will get to soon enough), such as saying the crew can be hurt by arrows --early in the game--, that actually doesn’t contradict anything. You know why? Because arrows in Legend of Dragoon are shown to be strong enough to pierce into stone and rock.
Such as here with the bandits, their arrows stick into the stone floor:
^start-00:17 and throughout the rest of it while they shoot at you in that area.
Hell, Drake is able to simply throw his knives hard enough to stick into a stone floor:
^7:50-8:00
Hmm? Did one Kongol punch take him out? Well sure, if you mean one punch ended the fight sequence. It's worth noting that it was a punch that Dart made stronger by running into. And even then all it did was knock him back, he wasn't even knocked out by it. Being knocked out isn’t even the issue here, Dart’s head not simply exploding is the remarkable thing, which it should have if he was ordinary. It’s an immense durability feat. Once more, Kongol punching Dart from :22-:38. Dart was not unconscious. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfWxh3Q91s0 And Kongol’s strong enough to do this, from 6:04-6:46: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icFC0bzYJ14 didn’t feel like embedding these two. I will embed plenty throughout this.
Show him tanking it? Oh? You mean the fact that he was standing and completely cognizant enough to speak out a multi-syllable sentence after it, doesn't suffice? Or perhaps him being fine after the fight and showing no surrounding indications (plot/character statements etc) of injury?
Do you need to be lead by the hand by a narrator, telling you at every turn that "ohh! what a great feat! take heed audience!" and are thus unable to assess what actually happens on screen without some sort of notice of it? I feel for you. Though to be fair the term 'tanking' can be a broad term that's loosely interpreted very often, although my interpretation here isn't anywhere close to being particularly liberal. (For example, and this is merely coincidence that I bring up this example, I've even seen a person or two state that Squall nearly DYING from an magic icicle to the left shoulder/upper left chest was 'tanking' the attack. Lol.)
Unquantifiable? No, not at all. I'll post it for those that haven't seen it:
^7:35-8:35
For one, the move itself is very clear, no ambiguity about it. Its a guy flying at you at super speed, engulfed in flames with his sword sticking out at you, and after he hits you a mini volcano like eruption takes place under your feet. You know another reference for the power behind that attack? Take for example, another scene featuring this time Zieg and Melbu fighting seperately (as opposed to Melbu's spirit occupying Zieg and making him even more powerful):
^1:11-1:41 Melbu and Zieg square off and their clash destroys an entire section of the floating city of Kadessa along with the signet sphere that was in that section. Their crash landing after Zieg has Melbu impaled on his sword, is so violent that it destroys the area in a dirt cloud and causes a chain reaction of outer support pillars to collapse as well. At 2:14-2:50 when it cuts back to them, we see what I described just now, the entire area of their fight in shambles. Melbu and Zieg's fight is over, Melbu's body is dying/dead and Zieg is turning to stone, a spell which Melbu cast as soon as Zieg stabbed him moments prior. So, simply the bi-product of Melbu and Zieg's fight was able to cause a great deal of destruction,
so Melbu Zieg using the most powerful Red-Eyed Dragoon spell is going to have some immense power behind it. We even have a reference of this fight, here Charle Frahma talks about
the fight between Zieg and Melbu and their destroying the signet sphere in Kadessa:
^6:48-10:05
Btw here's a screenshot demonstrating that Zieg is in fact, charging with his sword pointed at you (please log in to view the image)
(I only even put it here because its so difficult to see in game due to the speed/camera angle of the attack) It's not even merely gameplay either, its a scripted canon scene within gameplay. It seems you've yet to be able to think beyond abstract terms, everything just sort of bleeds together and is difficult to compartmentalize deeply on your end.
And before you even attempt to say that Zieg and Melbu didn't ruin that area under their own power and that destroying the signet sphere itself caused the damage, I will say that breaking
the sphere itself has never caused any sort of destruction. Each time one was broken by a moon object or whatever else, there was no destruction caused by the occurrence, and again before you try the situation
of the signet sphere area being destroyed in Aglis, that came from a negative chain reaction with Moot, which then went on to destroy the signet sphere along with that entire room. So yeah,
Dragoon's can cause that level of destruction. They brought down other floating wingly cities in a similar fashion back in the day and even a valley. Too bad, thus it’s a skyscraper+ durability showing for Dart.
Dart was not just shown attacking him after the fight in one cutscene, he was also shown attacking him alone BEFORE the fight. To reiterate though, because apparently you are confused, my point was NOT that Dart was attacking him with none of the party in the area, (I even said that they are all present in the NF respect thread) I said he was the only one ever being shown attacking Lloyd at all, even with his party nearby. Yeah, you will respond with the words of "There they are" or some such from Lloyd,
cool, that actually doesn't address anything I'm talking about because I already said they are in the area. But, there are none, repeat none, shown of them assisting Dart during his attacks, Dart was the only one shown conversing with Lloyd and the only one rushing him. There is no boss fight before or after that one--none--where Dart is with a party and he confronts a boss alone. There is always at least another person who is next to him sharing dialogue in a pre-boss fight scripted scene. The second Lloyd fight is the singular example, and thus the significance is that its putting the focus on Dart.
Experience points screen? Cool. Not exactly significant in the least—seeing as even Shana who did nothing but curl up into a ball and not actually fight during some boss fights (such as the first virage in volcano villude) still got experience points from those boss fights, but cool. What you've been failing to grasp this entire time is that its not even IMPORTANT, that Dart might have beaten Lloyd alone. Nada.
The most baseline detail to glean from the situation I'm talking about is that Dart, by himself, IS able to react now. The end fight slash that Dart attempts on Lloyd that you reference only adds to my point, its another instance of Dart going forward to attack Lloyd on his own, with no assistance. Do you understand somewhat better?; The party does NOT fight by just forming some circle around an opponent and then all of them attack at the same time relentlessly. They will all have their individual moments, its just that Dart's is the only one confirmed to have them on a regularly basis. So in the end, that's three times--three times--during that part of the story, that Dart attacked Lloyd on his own. During the fight itself, Lloyd can only dodge your attacks once in awhile (and not a gameplay % based ‘miss’ alert to clarify, but an outright dodge/taunt) whereas before he did it 100% of the time, which, as I said before, shows a big improvement in relative speed. And the last dodge he made on Dart's final slash once again shows the improvement in speed because it was not easy nor casual, Lloyd had to completely fly back several meters. Dart couldn't even keep track of Lloyd in their first fight, he couldn't process his movements. He literally turned invisible during his final blitz of Dart during disc 1, that’s how fast he was relative to Dart’s ability to keep up.
But in the 2nd fight, Lloyd even with his teleportation and mind reading abilities, could not overwhelm Dart again whenever Dart attacked him alone. They all would need at least a degree of superspeed even to collectively fight him especially since they did not use their Dragoon forms (more on this soon). On that note, lets address this “The characters don't need to be animated in order to know they are present. It's a game, not Anime.” comment mores specifically. This is absurd. Visual evidence > assumptions, and we what we KNOW is that the game can and does render all 7 characters on a field as it has done so, but secondly, the point is NOT whether they are all present when logically they would be, of course they are. The point is that there is zero, repeat, zero, evidence that all seven people in the party actively participate in every boss battle for which they are present. The only times for fights that they are all shown on the field at a time is near the tail end of the game with the scenes before the last few boss fights (namely the super virage and of course the final boss) and before you get to the winged executioners. They give precedence and face time to different people at different points in the game for boss fights, with Dart being the only constant. That’s all, there is no reason to assume at all that they all fight in every damn boss fight, and no in-game statements say they do either. Ergo, they don’t because of what the visuals show. Hell, an example of which can be seen in the aforementioned Winged Executioners fight:
^Start-00:53 They show all 7 on the field, but when the Nomos droid or whatever appears, only Dart, Rose, and Albert step forward to battle the three winged executioners that it calls down. There is nothing more that’s possible to infer other than them being the main force for this fight. Just as Haschel, Kongol, Miranda, and Dart are the force shown for the Windigo fight. Just as Dart, Rose, and Albert were the only ones shown to confront Zackwell possessed Lavitz, and also the only ones shown confronting Melbu Zieg in the moon and so on and so forth with so many additional examples such as the many fights where Dart and Rose are alone represented. For pete’s sake, the one time we know for sure with no uncertainty that everyone participates in a fight is when they all brandish their weapons to start the God Melbu Frahma fight—makes sense seeing as he’s the final boss and the most powerful, thus needing the full force. In the end it serves as an even stronger contrast to the prior character visuals (read: fewer) used to introduce the weaker bosses. Are these aforementioned visuals canon? Yes. Are the 3 man character parties nothing more than a player choice? For the most part. Can we infer that technical constraints limit them from showing all characters get ready/get done for fights? Absolutely not, since we already have at least an instance where they do show them for a fight, (and a dozen or so times throughout the story when it simply has to do with story progression) there is no logical technical reason to discern why they wouldn’t for earlier situations. Can we infer that the developers then made conscious decisions on who to put focus on before/after fights? Yes, obviously, seeing as they had to code it to do that in the first place. Are there in-game quotes or even developer statements that would contradict and explain (respectively) these visuals in some way or another? No, there isn’t. (note, that fights aren’t sparse because the 30+ boss fights aren’t the only battles, random monsters that you might encounter on the field are referred
to throughout the story as well, so there is plenty of fighting for everyone to grow from within the context of the plot)
This is exactly the same situation for Dragoon transformations as well, we see them canonically use it in cutscenes only a handful of times, each time was meant to be a dramatic scene. Yet 90% of the time we see them in cutscenes being battle ready simply in base form, particularly Dart who attacks and performs a great number of his feats in base form all throughout the game. Would be silly to suggest that they are helpless/obsolete in their human forms even against the more exotic, and dangerous magical foes they face throughout the game when they are shown able to competently compete even as such. Much like the party confrontation number mentioned in the above block of writing, the only time we can confirm for sure that Dragoons are used during a boss fight is when everyone fights God Melbu and are in Dragoon form at the very end of it. Dart even finishes him off with a Divine Dragon cannon whereas in other boss fights he slashes them in base form to finish the fight. Which again, serves as a contrast for weaker prior bosses.
The points I've made above extends to Dragoon form Melbu Zieg as well. Dart tagged Melbu Zieg on his own. No one assisted him during his maneuver, and no one was assisting him while they clashed swords with each other either. Of course there was no way he was going to beat Melbu Zieg on his own though, especially without a dragoon form of his own and MZ being in a dragoon form himself. That, was never something I even hinted towards saying. Not once.
And that is of one of another few handful of examples of Dart tagging hypersonic flyers, and yes, Dragoons are every bit as hypersonic as I'm saying as I'll show again.
I do not however expect you to comprehend my point any easier even after I've broken it down of course.
Yes, they do move at mach speeds, its only until later scenes that you are able to get a reference to how fast they are however.
DBZ is such a vague reference for comparison to use and ranges from all over. All they have to do is fly at the speeds they've demonstrated, which is at least early DBZ level speed anyway(not that Iike the comparison, you brought it so I went with it). You weren't aware of these being high end hypersonic feats, unfortunately your ignorance of actual phenomena used to make the comparison is not submission of proof that they aren't. Get smarter. Learn some shit. Try again.
The particular feats are, once again:
^1:23-1:54 Kongol is able to fly up and intercept an incoming meteor before it reaches the lower atmosphere, in just seconds. Massively hypersonic feat. And we know Dragoon magic is
canon both by the knowledge that in the game it is the only way that humans can do magic and examples of them being done, including Melbu Zieg using Final Burst on Dart
canonically and Dart using Divine Dragon Cannon in a cutscene.
^And then in the ending, we have two more hypersonic feats.
1st: 3:00-3:07. The crew outruns an explosion just as soon as it happens. Detonation Velocity of a solid explosion that big would be well over Mach 20, probably approaching Mach 30. Even minor C4 has a detonation velocity of well over 8000 meters/sec. (guaranteed you did not know this detonation velocity thing till I told you).
2nd: 4:01-End, they easily clear the distance in a few seconds from a high-end Nuke level explosion, strong enough to lay waste to the Divine Tree, which itself was durable enough to survive
the weight of the moon that never sets (nowhere near as big as our moon but still in the tens of millions + ton range) falling on it—and therefore far more durable than anything an actual nuke can destroy. Its explosion leaves a crater big enough to become its own lake.
-They had to be far enough away to where Shana, who was not transformed and not being shielded by Dart, was not getting 3rd degree burns. Which would have been a couple of dozen miles at least (Tsar Bomb gave people 3rd degree burns from up to 62 miles away).
-They had to be far enough away to where Dart could shout over the sound of the explosion. Seeing as an explosion that big would have been audible for several hundred miles away, they
would have had to go pretty far before a voice could be audible over it.
-Even the view of the explosion we see while Dart is shouting over it at 4:49-5:00 is a view that would translate to at least dozens of miles away.
It’s a feat comparable with the meteor punching.
I recall you seemingly insinuating that a one mile distance would be too generous…LMAO. You know why that’s idiotic? Because the diameter of ground zero, which the divine tree, is probably AT LEAST a mile itself.
A ground level view of the Divine Tree’s spread: (please log in to view the image)
And an aerial view while it was still spreading out: (please log in to view the image)
Compare it to the Sedan Crater, which is 1280 feet in diameter, about a quarter of a mile: (please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)
^The Sedan Crater, is obviously nowhere near as wide.
^Even this crater is obviously nowhere near as wide when comparing the opposite end of it that is
still quite clear in detail (you can even make out the shrubs, small trees & bushes on the other side) to the opposite end of the divine tree which is blurring strongly enough from the distance (atmospheric perspective) to be almost a silhouette. In comparison with those shrubs, a man sized object is visible for up to ~3 miles away as per this chart: http://www.terrypepper.com/Lights/lists/visibility.htm
Would you be able to see Dart if he was standing on the opposite end of the divine tree in the first picture I posted? In all likelihood, hell no. Why? Nevermind that the tree’s gigantic branches themselves are being blurred at that distance, you’d have a difficult enough time seeing Dart if he was simply standing on the moon’s surface with all these virages, which themselves are made to look small; (please log in to view the image)
How big are these virages? For reference one impales Belzac (who is just as big as an 8’3” kongol, not unheard of as other humans like Fruegal and the big Fletz guard are also Kongol sized) with the smallest claw on its hand; (please log in to view the image)
And how big are these claws relative to the virage’s full height? Pretty modest sized actually; http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2691/virageclaws.png http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/...irageclaws2.png http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/...irageclaws3.png
So yeah, just imagine a 5’9” Dart standing on the moon next to one of those things.
Finally, here is the crater from the moon blowing up with the divine tree, just for further comparison : ) : (please log in to view the image)
They passed a hell of a long distance and did so in the order of mere seconds, they are hypersonic as hell. You will not have a retort to this, so kindly sit down, and be quiet before you attempt to feign knowledge again in the future. Afterall, you are the same clown that claimed in these exact words that “1 mile is like 1,400 kilometers”. (LOLWUT) And subsequently; “Our Moon is around 1 mile from its center to the surface” (Again, LOL!) Though that would be fairly accurate if 1 mile did indeed equal 1,400 km, but of course it doesn’t. When you don’t even know what the hell one mile is, you need to shut up. Thanks in advance.
And before you ask, how are the physics and general physical properties of this game justifiably the same as in real life for those feats to stand exactly as I described them? Simple. Since you like to try to attempt to spam fallacy accusations in such a spastic manner, I'll use something that is actually APPLICABLE; Occam's Razor. e.g. In this case, unless demonstrated otherwise the physics and general physical properties of this game world can be assumed to be the same as in ours—we assume this anyway for versus threads of course.
Hence, they are hypersonic by feats. And again, these aren't remotely esoteric quantifications, they are easily found with a quick search. Even if we were to make a reasonable assumption that earlier dragoons--such as on disc 1 including those like Doel and Greham, are weaker than the end game
Dragoons, even if we reasonably assume them to only be 10% as powerful, they'd still be well into the mach speeds.
Oh no, on the contrary, they don't not move at mach speeds just because you have an inability or unwillingness to process easy to comprehend feats that say they DO.
No, that’s actually not very accurate.
Firstly, it overlooks the fact that Dart and crew are not the ordinary human fodder you see around the game, their feats against opponents have firmly established that they are not, which in turn demonstrates their potential being far above those others as well. Secondly, it goes against repeated character statements(Lloyd’s included) about the increase in strength over time for Dart and by extension the Co. Thirdly, Dragoons are not rivals of Winglies in power. They are outright superior both by feats AND portrayals.
There were only 7 dragoons, and they were enough to turn the tide in an war against an entire race
of beastly magic wielders, which the Winglies are. (Dragons and Virages cancelled each other out as both were nearly wiped to extinction from the war.) And, to boot, the Winglies of the Dragoon campaign
were far more powerful than the ‘modern’ Winglies, Lloyd verbally included himself among this group of Winglies that had gotten less powerful, though he’s still obviously better than the rabble still cooped up in the forest. Ancestor Blano also states that the Dragoons have more power than the ‘Winglies of old’ when you go back and talk to him optionally some time after the Divine Dragon fight. Hell, The most powerful Wingly, Melbu Frahma, was more or less defeated by Zieg who had nothing more than the same Red-Eyed Dragoon spirit form that Dart has throughout most of the game.
Melbu Frahma even had the Dragon Buster and it still didn’t stop Zieg from killing his body. You can call
it a tie ultimately if you want since he stoned him and took over his body in the end, but regardless, the
point has been thoroughly made.
-cont-
Seriously, Dart in red-eyed Dragoon form would beat Lloyd without too much issue, the Dragon Buster being able to extend its reach and one shot dragoons is the one thing that would give Lloyd a fighting chance. And since the element of surprise he had in killing Lavitz with the Dragon Buster is no longer in play since Dart knows what it is and what it looks like, that becomes less of an issue, just as it was not much of an issue for Zieg when he fought Melbu.
Humans can’t match Winglies eh? Yet Dart in base form was the one who killed Lenus, a Wingly, while she was in a Dragoon form of her own, and she was hardly alone, she had the sea dragon Regole helping her. This is not within the abilities of a ‘normal’ human.
Dart and Rose in nothing but their base form, killed Michael, a Dragon, born from the same one that Rose gets her Dragoon spirit from, a dragon that she boasted to have the best speed and defense(a hide even stronger than when you fight the Divine Dragon***). A dragon where the only weakspot was a heart that canonically exposes itself only after it uses its most powerful attack the black lazer (which btw Dart and Rose had to either avoid somehow or take the brunt of head on to win, either way a big feat considering the known circumstances), making it even harder to damage on top of the fact that its probably just as fast as a dragoon. (We already have a reference for how fast the Divine Dragon can fly to powerscale from**) This is not in the abilities of a normal human. 2 ordinary humans wouldn’t even be able to beat Feyrbrand, let alone a dragon of Michael’s caliber. We already know that from the fact that Feyrbrand was partially used to attack Basil’s marshland base which was full of knights (two of the knights had no marks on their body but were dead from the poison alone), and they obviously couldn’t stop him. And hell, on top of what I said already, Dart was more or less fighting Michael by himself for the majority of the fight! He was trying to kill it, whereas Rose being the one who knew its weakness was doing nothing but hesitating the whole time until Dart finally got a solution out of her. So we have Dart fighting seriously while we have Rose hesitating to do anything at all, hell she was even trying to talk to Michael. And hell, we already know Rose killed Michael once before in the past just by herself. So its in Dart’s capability to do so just as well with prior knowledge of the weakspot. This is, once again, not within the abilities of a normal human.
Pssh, forget Winglies, Haschel a mere human, reacted to and beat a War God that was possessing his daughter and that had even better speed feats than Lloyd—(more on this later). This is not within the abilities of a normal human.
As I said before, the humans in Dart’s party have a higher potential than most of the fodder humans that
are no different than us in that verse. Unlike the multitude of RPGs that have nothing more than a vague leveling system that is not referred to in regards to the assumed improvement of the party’s power throughout the plot, LoD openly talks about the improvement of abilities throughout the game. Most prominent examples of which are, Lloyd himself telling Dart in Disc 1, that Dart had not reached his full potential and that he will get stronger(said this to Haschel too as an aside in the same scene). Then early in disc 4, Rose herself comments on Dart becoming stronger and that he wouldn’t need her anymore. Further on again in Disc 4, Lavitz’s ghost himself comments on how strong Dart has gotten which Dart acknowledges and makes reference to the strong enemies that have been fought as reason for growth. There’s a chicken or the egg question going on here though, is the party’s potential being so much higher than normal humans the reason why they are able to handle dragoon spirits, or is it because they are synced with Dragoon spirits that their potential as humans is so much higher? It seems to be a combination of both. Some quotes:
-^11:34-13:03. Rose says when she was awakening Dart’s spirit, it was a test to see if he could be a Dragoon, she said if he couldn’t, he would be dead. Not surprising as he fainted after his first time transforming anyway.
-^6:35-7:08. On the topic of Feyrbrand, Rose says the knights even with numbers can’t win because humans can’t beat a dragon, and that it could destroy all of the country of Basil’s forces. And then she says Dragoons have a different existence and are above humans. And yeah, Dart and Rose go on to beat Michael in the 4th disc, a dragoon far superior to Feyrbrand, without ever needing to even transform. This is not within the abilities of a normal human.
-A nameless Wingly (one of the ones chatting near the lake) after meru and whole party go to the wingly forest says apparently that you need a certain aptitude to become a Dragoon. Aptitude is a mental OR physical ability.
-And more interestingly, Ancestor Blano said that the current winglies no longer have the power to master the Dragon Block Staff, but that the party might be able to do it since they ‘rule dragons’: And most interestingly, Dart used it in BASE form, again, in base form he used a powerful magic item that some current winglies admitted to not having the ability to wield anymore. This is not within the abilities of a normal human.
Naturally one would have to assume Lloyd would have the advantage over Dart in base form due to having more abilities, but that doesn’t mean Dart’s chances for victory aren’t good with just swordsmanship involved, and he proved it. And by the 4th disc, when he’s confident enough to make solo maneuvers against Dragoon form Melbu Zieg and come out fine, he’d in all likelihood be the favorite in a duel against Lloyd in base.
Being the only one highlighted during the Lloyd fight is not unique as far as accreditation goes. Dart gets the majority credit for a couple of boss fights. Once more, Kongol gave Dart and Dart only credit for beating Doel, even though he had assistance Dart was the one who killed Doel and Kongol acknowledges that and acknowledges Dart as Doel’s superior in power. The Dragon Feyrbrand, Dart is given the majority credit for killing him as well. For example going back to Bale sometime after killing the dragon, at least one of the commoners says to Dart that its very fortunate that the man who killed the dragon is on their side. The Sea Dragon Regole and Lenus? Dart gets credit for being the man to kill them too. Sometime after you beat Lenus and Regole, talk around in Fueno and you’ll see that Dart has a chocolate drink named after him and that he’s hailed as a ‘true hero’. It’s not as if this town knew Dart, and certainly no more than any of the others, so they would have no reason to have bias towards him, but clearly the word they got was that Dart was the main hero of the battle. These examples only bolster the fact that Dart was the only one shown fighting Lloyd. OF COURSE they are trying to give him most of the credit when they put more singular visual focus on him during the 2nd Lloyd fight than *any* boss fight before. Your claim that Dart is not able to react to Lloyd would require that, again, the party somehow fights by forming a circle around Lloyd and all attacking at the same time—which they don’t, nor would that be feasible in the least. Dart doesn’t get the majority of the credit because he’s ‘the leader’, no, he gets the most credit because he provably on-screen does the most work with finishing bosses like ninety percent of the time. He’s the leader because he’s meant to be the best.
**As for the Divine Dragon’s flight speed, even without it being portrayed as fast as Dragoons, its still shown itself to be fast enough to cover several hundreds of miles of in the order of mere minutes. We know Dart and Co took over a week to get back from Mt. Mortal Dragon all the way back to Deningrad after they killed the Divine Dragon. When you get back to the Crystal Tower after hearing of the Queen being abducted by Lloyd, Luanna starts off the story by setting the flashback to ‘a few days ago’, so a minimum of 2 days have passed since the queen was abducted, and then we see the flashback of it happening and in it Queen Teresa asks Luanna how long its been since the Dragon’s roaring was last heard, and she says about a week--So a minimum of 7 days.
^All of that is here at 2:48-6:26.
Even if we assume they were only travelling at a *very* conservative average speed of 4 miles per hour (conservative because we know they were in a rush chasing after Lloyd), a minimum of 9 days (7+2, hope you’re keeping up) to get from the mountain to deningrad would equate to 864 miles that they travelled. Is that an exaggerative number? No, not at all. Especially when one remembers that Mille Seseau is an entire country, so from one icy city neighbored by glaciers to a fiery, volcano populated mountain range is logically going to be a great distance. Now, as for the Divine Dragon, it flies over the Forbidden Land which is far away from the Wingly Forest all the way to Deningrad in the span of minutes. How do we know it was only minutes? Simple; Dart and Co were whisked back to the Wingly Forest from the Forbidden Land/Kadessa and then from there teleported to Deningrad with the help of a few Winglies.
-cont-
The DD had a headstart on them so it was able to attack Deningrad and then leave and they managed to get there just after it was all done, and when they get to the crystal palace, they see that Shana still has the shield of light up that she used against the DD’s beam, so indeed very little time had passed.
^All of that is here at 13:39-22:55
Map of the continent of Endiness just for reference(translations are different): (please log in to view the image)
Where would the forbidden land be on the map? Never specified, but we do know that its nowhere near Deningrad because that is in an icy region, whereas the Forbidden land is desolate and arid looking. Thus by saying ‘hundreds of miles’, it probably comes out to 1000+ miles all together, as it was clearly further away from Deningrad than even Mt Mortal Dragon was.
tl;dr: Divine Dragon is very fast by virtue of crossing hundreds of miles in minutes, and Michael is said to be the fastest dragon period, thus Dart and Rose killing it by themselves in base is impressive as hell compounded by its contextually vulnerable single weakspot being the only way to hurt it.
Moving on to Wink right quick, because apparently you are peddling this as some sort of damning, smoking gun. You know what it is? It's a plot point that requires Wink to get in the way in time to save Lloyd. It's a simple example of PIS/low showing/outlier, pretty much all fictional verses will have examples of these. At the very worst, all it means was that they weren't going at superspeed during that particular exchange. No more, no less.
It doesn't override all of the superhuman speed/reaction feats such as:
-^start-1:05. Reacting to/dodging several arrows coming down at him, the impressiveness is amplified by the fact that it was an ambush. And then dodging a few more rounds, even with a crowded party taking up space on a narrow bridge/area. Arrows can move at well over 200 feet per second, and these would have to be even faster for them to stick into solid rock floors the way they did. This alone already invalidates Wink’s interception, unless Wink herself is meant to be very fast too.
-^9:20-9:23.Dart running across a big platform to knock back a person who jumped was subsequently 10 feet or so off the ground, and Dart rushed in and knocked him back before his feet feet ever touched the
ground. Literally would have taken 3/4 to 4/5 of a second to land and Dart knocked him back even quicker than that time frame. Only in the cutscene after the fight do you see how big of a distance Dart actually crossed as that platform is far bigger in actuality than the field graphics show: (please log in to view the image)
(Oh. And before you try to contradict, asking something like ‘then why didn’t they run out of the way of the falling stone hand?!’ Easy; CIS. Deer in-headlights like syndrome going on there, seeing as even Kongol was fast enough to start running midway through its fall and catch the thing before it was 9 or so feet from the ground (Kongol is 8’3” so his upstretched arms would have made it about 9 feet), so clearly they could have run the opposite direction in time.
Moving on.
-Dart striking down four ghost knights who charged at him from all sides at the same time.
-Dodging Kamuy’s lunge at close range when several other human characters could not.
-Reacting to a near point blank Wingly blast that 3 knights could not.
^And those were low end, at the high end of the feats we have:
-Tagging and landing the killing blow on Dragoon form Doel and Dragoon form Lenus. I’ve already established Dragoon speeds, along with a logical caveat for non-end game Dragoons, but on top
of linear flight speed their outright agility is also important to establish how big a feat it is to tag them. E.G:
^8:36-End. Dart as a first time rookie with little control demonstrated the agility to shoot straight up towards the sky, zip back down immediately, and maneuver across the small space that is the town of Hoax’s courtyard and nail Kongol dead on. Hell, he was even able to maneuver himself from hitting the ground as he was speeding back down.
^9:51-10:00. And Rose in a Black Monster story shows dragonfly like turning ability during flight.
-Tagging and clashing swords with Dragoon form Melbu Zieg.
- Oh, and by the way, backtracking to Lloyd right quick, Dart was also able to keep his eyes
on Lloyd while he was fighting the Divine Dragon and while he rushed in right after the fight to get its
Dragoon spirit.
---While Lloyd was fighting the Divine Dragon he had a supersonic to hypersonic reaction feat when he jumped to avoid an explosion;
^8:03-8:17. Detonation velocity, once more that term rears its head. Dart kept his eyes on him during this.
---After the Divine Dragon falls, Lloyd rushes in take the divine dragon’s spirit out of its eyeball;
^7:09-8:25. Dart was able to keep his eyes on Lloyd during this as well. The distance Lloyd covers in his rush is also impressive when you consider the cutscene shows that this is the essential size difference between the two: (please log in to view the image) half as tall as the main eyeball on the DD’s chin.
These two examples are a big deal because back during their first fight on disc 1, Lloyd was literally invisible to Dart’s eyes when he charged him at the end here at 1:43-end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vexm0qKpllI (not gonna bother embedding this one.)
-^Haschel at his strongest, on the 4th disc, was fast enough to react to and tag the War God that
Possessed his daughter Claire, who is even faster than Lloyd. Possessed Claire was able to initially blitz this version of Haschel, and the only time Haschel had been blitzed before would have been off-screen by Lloyd back on disc 1 when Haschel was far weaker. Possessed Claire is fast enough to look like she’s phasing through attacks, and fast enough to look like there’s four of her attacking at once; The other apparitions dissipate after the attack, and after Haschel focuses and attacks back, we see that there was really only ever one Claire that was attacking at all, not four. Haschel is part of the party, and Dart is his friggin grandson, so they would have comparable speed.
Lol no. By the vast majority of feats he gets put in the tier right above it. He’s a metahuman, low to mid depending on the category, in the same tier as someone like Blade, Spiderman, Sabretooth etc.
Forgive the confusion (actually, I don’t care as I knew you’d make it), but I'm NOT talking about the Virage taking steps back from his injuries. I'm talking purely about the end battle scene, Dart's slash causes the Virage to slide back on its feet:
^4:40-4:45 Dart attacks. The thing slides back on its feet for a few meters. From 4:45 to 5:48 is what you
are talking about, (as well as what establishes how heavy it is when its fall causes that huge boulder to spin around several times). Oh, and it was certainly not an ‘imaginary’ effect as you might try to retort. You do recall what a weaker Dart did earlier on Disc 1? Why, he knocked a legless Virage into a deep pool of lava. You see? A precedent. Everything so effortlessly jelled together there didn’t it? Warms the heart. I bet you actually thought you were going to be able refute that one didn’t you silly boy?
What the hell are you talking about? Right here: 6:59-7:31 Dart slashed through the Divine Dragon just as he slashed through several other bosses in end fight cutscenes.
What are you trying to suggest? That these end battle slashes aren’t canon? Lol. They are unavoidable scripted cutscenes that lead to plot progression. Such as here;
^5:55-7:07. Another end fight cutscene attack from Dart. Except here Dart doesn’t just slash, no, he slashes twice, to knock the Virage into a pool of lava. You are NOT going to be able to say he didn’t do that since it is a very specific detail in the scene following it. There are times when Dart tries to land the killing blow on bosses and it is subverted as well. Secondly, these end fight attacks are NOT just used by Dart either. Lavitz does so against Fruegal at 6:40-6:42, and Haschel does so as well against Gehrich at 7:22-7:27, landing the blow that causes him to die gradually a few minutes later. All of these things show that these are not just generic slashes that Dart always does (or even always succeeds at when he tries), but that they are plot driven and vary due to said plot. You also have no authority to pick and choose which you think are legit/not legit. They are canon. All of them. End of.
-cont-
And in this case, the most important thing to glean from him cutting through the Divine Dragon is that the Divine Dragon proves to be both very heavy and very durable and Dart cuts through it. It’s heavy as hell in that the weight of its head and neck falling alone is enough to cause high end earthquake like upheavals, hundreds of thousands to millions of tons of rock (not an exaggeration when you realize how big it is, once again Lloyd is half as big as its main pupil)being shifted from that fall. And it is very durable in that it was in-tact even from the weight of its massive fall, no damage whatsoever. Square-Cube law, will mention it again later.
And seriously? My ‘proof’, are important things that you can’t debunk other than trying to create mindless dichotomies in the plot which cannot work. I will get to this soon again. These bosses I mentioned have actual durability feats and/or properties that establish their weight, Dart hurts them in cutscenes, ergo he demonstrates strength feats during these. Elementary shit.
Except the logic you present, is not actually similar to mine and is hollow, misrepresentative, and shamelessly stupid.
My logic is a simple set up of if-then conditional statements, very simple:
-The Divine Dragon has X level of durability demonstrated by [insert] feat.
-Y amount of output is required to hurt it.
-Thus: If the Divine Dragon has X level durability, then it will require Y amount of damage output to hurt him.
-Dart hurt the Divine Dragon, Therefore he delivered at least Y amount of output to hurt it.
Like I said, simple elementary shit.
Your statement is hollow because it tells us nothing:
-Does it tell us Auron is durable? Of course not. He never got attacked by any of that of that.
-Does it tell us Auron is fast? No, why would it?
-Does it tell us Auron is strong? Nay, not in the least, which I’ll cover below.
Your statement is misrepresentative because:
-Auron did NOT hurt Sin. Especially not in the manner that Dart landed the killing blow on the DD.
One could set up an if then statement such as Dart vs the Divine Dragon, IF it turns out that Sin has a durability feat AND Auron has demonstrated to hurt it.
The first part checks out because Sin to his credit does have a good durability feat even outside of using his shields: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIfJlxiXb5k
^He falls a from above the clouds all the way down to Bevelle and comes back from it without any visible injuries.
However, the second part does not check out because NO ONE ever hurt Sin’s ‘hull’ while they were fighting it on the airship when it was hypnotized by the hymn. Cid even points out weakspots on the fins for them to attack, those glowing purple flower orb pimple things. Lol. And even while they were attacking its friggin weakspots on both fins all they managed to do was irritate it enough for it to fly away so the ship could blast the fins off with its main cannons at a distance. The ship’s cannon was the only thing that ever hurt Sin’s ‘epidermis’ in some way, not them. And then they had to attack its core, another purple flowery weakspot, and then destroying that was what allowed them to down Sin momentarily(causing it to fall to Bevelle).
^There’s the gauntlet for anyone wanting to check. You will find no instance of the party being able to damage Sin’s hull, at all. That’s it, no more than that, nada. There is not a single cutscene, mention or hint of Auron or anyone else physically damaging Sin’s hide, let alone anyone landing a killing blow. In the end all they could end up doing is get swallowed, which Tidus even says is the only way they could win by beating ‘the guy inside of him’.
Your statement is shamelessly stupid because of everything all together. : )
Not too bright are you? Don’t attempt to cobble together flimsy analogies in the future.
***About Michael’s skin being tougher than the Divine Dragon’s (seeing as you couldn’t damage Michael normally), just in case you think I’m eliminating some context, I’m talking about after the Divine Dragon was weakened by the Dragon Buster Lloyd was using and the Dragon Block Staff that Dart used. Why did I not mention this before with regard to the feat of Dart cutting through the Divine Dragon? Because it doesn’t matter. Even with that happening, it didn’t change the fact that the Divine Dragon is impossibly heavy as hell for its size, and it still has the durability feat of withstanding the weight of its own fall, even after being weakened. So yeah, conditional statement of Dart having a strength feat here comes from after those factors were already accounted for.
Hmm, I’m seeing a lot of words here yet little actually being said.
You’re arguing that the sword is heavier than it would be in actuality (10 lbs or so at best in RL) yes? And using the blitzball tackle out of the water sphere as a reference for that. K. That’s fine, and I’ve said similar things in the past to justify Tidus’ struggle in holding up that sword. Although the feat itself does nothing particularly special for Tidus or Auron, as its one of things that put Tidus at peak human overall in the first place and Auron being much lesser in agility and speed is what keeps him down in the same tier ultimately.
^The feat itself isn’t as impressive as you are attempting to make it sound, the guy went flying horizontally for a couple of meters before he angled downward from gravity. Basically, Tidus hit him out from a higher spot than where he landed, so its certainly not entirely the force of his doing. Pushing someone off the top of a ladder while you are at their height doesn’t mean you propelled them ‘several meters’ now does it? Still, the feats suggests some degree of strength with Tidus’ ability to accelerate quickly in the water. At the same time it does not have much to do with upper body lifting strength at all since swimming uses all of your muscles, but for the sake of being reasonable it should still give you more than enough to at least hold up a 10 lb sword without struggling. Or, at worst, it was simply silly PIS that caused him to struggle holding up a normally weighted sword.
Not that any of this matters though, its not on par with Legend of Dragoon’s character’s strength at all.
As for Dart, well... he couldn't bring down a broken tree with his sword because apparently 'the blade won't last with this.' He needed an AXE, and struggled when lifting it and while using it. And that happens entirely OUTSIDE GAMEPLAY whereas most of your arguments comes from gameplay stances. I wanna see what kind of excuses you will post now. laughing out loud[/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You serious bruh? You want me to address this? Sure! Let’s destroy this.
‘Outside of Gameplay’? LOL. The dynamic you’re trying to create with your logic here is so hobbled and stupid that it easily falls apart with any decent application of general logic + knowledge of the game. You know this. It reeks of desperate spitefulness as a result of the unpleasantness of this debate with me. Basically, ‘U Mad’, nothing more nothing less. : ) Because even with my lack of respect in my appraisal of your intelligence, I know you aren’t actually stupid enough to believe that Dart can’t chop down a tree.
: )
Let’s actually inspect this bullshit right quick, apparently, you seem to be implying since that it was ‘outside of gameplay’ (what does this matter especially when I’m referring to scripted cutscenes?) that it is ok to assume its existence is of higher value and it can somehow coexist as a complete constant throughout the game and its status not be affected despite the fact that it creates a blackhole of logic with things that are actually important to the progression of the plot, such as, you know, boss fights, any number of which are far more durable than a near fallen tree. Nevermind that I already debunked your attempt to establish Dart’s numerous end battle slashes as mere gameplay, when they are in fact scripted canon cutscenes, and nevermind the fact that there are other later cutscenes that debunk it—both of which I will get to in a bit—I’ll go on without those right quick; do you wish to explain to me how, if Dart can’t chop down a tree with his sword, can end up slicing through the Urobolos snake along with Lavitz and Shana? A boss fight that happens like 20 minutes later in the very next area you have to walk to just after you chop down that tree in the prairie?
^:00-30 for its agile entrance and 4:45-end for its death.
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Jan 5th, 2011 04:04 AM
