I never said that I don't read about DC characters. I'm currently following many of the DCnU on-goings and I was reading DC comics in the past, I just prefer Marvel more, because of the stories and the events.
And I never said that I don't care about DC characters. I just said, that I didn't care about you talking about Kyle in a thread without any DC characters at all. It was mainly about Sentry and the Annihilators.
Reality warping powers are not the speed force. You know that.
Having reality warping as a power set is something different then trying to explain something with logic, yet ignoric physics, basically something the Flash is doing on a regular basis.
The idea behind the Hulk isn't that terrible. A person with a lot of adrenaline, becomes physically stronger, that's a fact, since the mind sets out and more strenght gets released.
Of course being actually the Hulk is unbelievable, mainly also because of the physics, but there are other DC characters who top that by a large margin.
Sentry is awesome and through the molecular manipulation it's still slightly more believable then being an alien, who has heat vision and x-ray vision, which can't see through one specific kind of metal, but through everything else.
Hulk is not the Silver Surfer and Hulk is also not the Sentry. A stable Sentry also took Hulk's hits without even bothering and overpowered him mentally (not really something what happened to the Hulk that often).
A Sentry in control of his powers would overpower Thor aswell. It has been portrayed that way, unfortunately two of their meetings were in What If's (while many people want to see the second What If as canon, because Uatu was there, talking to the Watcher of the different reality and hinted out that something like that was very, very possible in his own reality aswell).
Their canon meeting was during the Siege and there Thor didn't really stand a chance.
There is a longer debate about that in the "Sentry VS Annihilators" thread.
Based by the overall feats, the Sentry wouldn't even be able to hit the Silver Surfer once, but based by the ABC logic around the Sentry and his showings, he would be more then a match for the Surfer, if he was already vastly more powerful then Thor.
That's true but in this case it does.
Thor would offer Superman a damn good run for his money, while Sentry is supposed to be the superior character, and he was, even though he lacks feats.
Let me tell you this, if you read until this point and it will also spare you further reading:
If you want me to state the outcome by the amount of high end feats and so on, then I will not deny that Superman, Thor and Silver Surfer would beat the Sentry, but if you're not narrow-minded and open for an implied power level, which has also been showcased by the Sentry in the past by beating the Void multiple times, when being stable, then you too should understand that he was written to be a superior character at the beginning. That changed when Bendis took over, but it also changed when Bendis was done with the Sentry, Jenkins wrote the final issue and retconned the character back again (actually from a retcon which never happened, since Sentry always had his powerlevel. No one ever took away his powers and no one ever gave him new extra powers - when he came back from the dead, it was because that was the first time where he actually died, since his durability wasn't that high, because of his illness).
Sentry does not have low feats, why don't you understand that? What is a low feat for you? The instance where he got outskilled by Hercules?
Sentry wasn't even trying and even if so, Hercules has centuries of fighting experience. He outskilled Thor and forced him to cheat to get out of Hercules grip and Hercules out also outskill Superman. Yet in the same fight you could say, that Sentry was doing quite good, when he punched Hercules and used one fist, while Hercules had to support his arm with his other hand to hold the Sentry back. Then he kicked him into the balls and sank a ship, to distract Sentry, who then flew with the sinking ship up.
What other instances? The one where he got stopped by WW Hulk, even though he had the upper hand and that was clearly showcased during the entire fight? Yeah...
Or where he stalemated the Collective?
I know I already said that so many times, but these low showings where were he was in a weak state. It's not a low showing, if the writers use his weakness to give the enemies a fighting chance.
What other instances? Where Human Torch overloaded him and forced the Sentry to fly away? That was actually huge PIS, a huge plot device to remove the Sentry as fast as possible from the battlefield.
What's the point anyways in having him there, since he would have been able to solo them all in few seconds?
Judging by his powerset he should have never been force to flee, just because of a little bit fire.
I dont judge him solely on that since DC has had similar showing with their herald lvl beings.. from MM grunting to hold up a collapsing wall, superman admitting he isnt strong enough to break into an underground vault due to how thick the metal is..
Even if we give Sentry equal lvl strength to his opponent it is his CIS, lack of feats when compared to guys like Superman that causes him to lose..
Hah, I'm sorry Enzeru, I actually do like reading your posts...until you started saying one of the comic book universes was more believable than the other. Not true. NEither of them are believeable, and they are just as bad as each other....
That instance is one of the few which is totally above my understanding. I could never understand what that was about.
Sentry basically had problems with lifting it and started going down. Okay, it weights over thousands and thousands of tons, but still - he should be above it, besides the "his strenght and speed scale with his mental stability" ... BUT THEN.
Then Ms. Marvel and Wonder Man came along and easily helped him out? It's clear that their combined efforts lifted the Helicarrier, but still - what was Ms. Marvel doing there, who is basically way too weak for everything, since she asked the Sentry over 5 times for various instances where strenght was needed and she wasn't able to do it by herself.
It confused me so much.
For me Marvel was more believable because they didn't allow their characters to vibrate through solid objects via speed, but then "Speed" came along and pulled that trick off. That was pesky.
Besides that, my main point is actually that Marvel has the more believable stories, or had with the entire Civil War stuff and so on. Fear Itself ruined everything and I don't expect it to get better, to be honest.
Marvel is also not what it used to be and it's a pity.
But also besides that there are not many Marvel characters who come near the ridiculousness of the Flash character.
Last edited by Enzeru on Dec 6th, 2011 at 05:48 PM
obviously neither reality is believable/realistic but Marvel for decades has tried to explain things in their universe with its own internal logic.
there have bn instances where it has bn explained why regardless of how herald level strength you have why you cannot lift an X amount of weight without it collapsing in on itself. Marvel has even given explanations with why the earth cant be moved without causing world wide catastrophic effects.
DC rarely adheres to their own internal logic which shifts for story purposes at anyone time depending on the writer.
Of course Marvel's logic has pretty much bn thrown out the window in the last decade.. so i guess they are pretty even now.
Eh, they're both as bad as each other.....and both as good as each other.
Like Superman's powers. Believeable, as he is an alien.
Gamma bomb giving me superpowers? Not so much. Yes, there is an internally consistent explanation in Marvel (its all to do with radiation!!!!!) but that only makes it consistently wrong.
Like I'm supposed to feel empathy/sorry for Peter Parker. He has a stable, loving family, a steady job (poorly paid, but a job), a little black book that is the envy of everyone else (including a supermodel)...
Yeah, I feel sorry for him, he has it so hard. Lol.
Btw, most of that was tongue in cheek, so Spidey fans, please don't flame me with messages about Uncle Ben, Gwen etc.
And the Hulk....thunderclapped a dimension. And Lobo...compressed a city with his hands into a cube the size of a sugarcube. And Hercules...held up the entire sky. And Superman....lifted a book that weighed infinity. And....well, you get the picture.
Ok enzeru according to you sentry has no low showings. So tell me are we going to use superman's high end showings too because in every "low showing" he was holding back or he placed mental blocks on himself after he killed pocket dimension zod. It was specificaly shown in "no limits" arc around our worlds at war. If you want to go implied power route Book of oa had a prophecy about him, he is a direct descendent of Kryptonian sun god rao, "everything comes from superman", the unstoppable story and it was directly shown in trinity that superman CAN'T lose, brainiac 13 and imperiex said that he was a cosmic being who limits himself with human emotions, in countdown the full kryptonian powerset was reavaled and it was said that superman only use 1% of his powers because of mental blocks IIRC, etc.
That's so not the same thing and you know it, if you take few seconds to actually think about it.
Superman in the end will still only have a specific set of powers and many of the reasons why he struggles in forum fights, is because few of his enemies have a greater versatility: Thor, Martian Manhunter and so on...
The same applies for the Sentry, who is far more versatile then Superman and can bring in stuff which can take Superman down in the long run, while Sentry would stay above him, because of the powerset.
And it's not really implied what I'm talking about. It was already there. Implied was the Galactus-stalemate, which was also stated by X-Man, who was there during that fight, but yet I wouldn't use that as a high end feat for the Sentry to argue for him. What was never implied is that a stable Sentry was able to defeat the Void, something Superman would not be able to do so and this is not just my opinion, it's basically the opinion of basically everyone who ever debated about that specific fight.
Even though Superman has more and superior feats then the Void, everyone acknowledges that the Void is far superior to him, because of the shown powerlevel. Maybe you would give even that victory to Superman, but I wouldn't and that propabably applies for the most of the other users too.
But the problem is:
What most of the people fail to realize is, that a sane Sentry is more powerful then the Void. I know that it is ABC logic, but I don't see any kinds of flaws in it, since his powerlevel is clearly higher then Superman, just like Silver Surfers powerlevel is higher then Supermans. Maybe not because of the strenght and durability, but because of everything else.
Sentry > Superman, since we're not using weakened versions of them, but sane, where they're at their peak.
(Bendis really did manage to greatly downgrade the Sentry with the mental instability, so that now everyone believes that Sentry is a joke and that the Void is the real deal, which is simply not true and I explained it more then once)
If you still have problems understanding that, after this response of mine, then it's okay - I give up and I give every single win to Superman, even when it comes to their real, respective powerlevel, which is not only based by the amount of high end feats, where Sentry would lose in the first place, since he has 10 years of existence, while Superman has 80.
I can do that... with science !!!
Look at this first scan, how Power Girl boobies are standing perfectly, even though they're that large:
The girl is clearly having some problems with her boobies. They're not standing as perfectly as by the comic book Power Girl and additionally the size of them is dragging the girl to the ground. The breasts are following simple laws of physics and the girl is clearly in pain because of it.
Last edited by Enzeru on Dec 6th, 2011 at 06:40 PM
So according to you green lanterns should always win in a forum fight. Tell me who wins PC validus vs sentry or Iron man vs doomsday. Your reasoning that because sentry has more powers he would win is faulty, eradicator has everything sentry has and more and he has lost to superman. GLs have as open powerset as anyone can get and yet no standard gl has a single win against superman. There is a reason he is considered a peer to thor or silver surfer even after having such common weaknesses. His combat record is extremely good despite having such a simple powerset. So obilivion destroyed entire justice league and kyle defeated and absorbed him, can kyle defeat entire justice league? Yes or no. I wouldn't give superman a single win against void. I give surfer 6.5/10 against superman.
There he goes intangible, to let the bullets go through him, to avoid ricochets. He can also go invisible aswell. There are many things he can do.
Actually the Green Lanterns should win many of their fights, judging by the powerset and of course the opponents they're facing. In many forum fights you see people posting about how character XYZ would be able to break through their constructs and even while that may be possible, Lanterns still have much more at their dispossal to take down enemies, if they're forced to use these, not very often showcased powers, but I will write more about that one in few seconds.
Now you're messing up few things. That's not something I was talking about and the Spider-Man / Venom instance is the best example for that.
Spider-Man has far more feats then Venom and he has much better feats then Venom. The same applies for few of the other characters (Sentry and Thor for example), but that does not change the fact, that Venom overpowered Spider-Man mostly, when they fought each other and that Sentry overpowered Thor too, which makes him the more powerful being, since Thor was not able to handle Sentry's strenght / speed propperly.
Thor has much more under his dispossal, yet he has lost many fights to the Hulk and that's the mistake you're making. You're looking at their comic book showings, which are full of PIS.
Do you know what happened in the most recent "Mighty Thor" comics? Thor and Silver Surfer fought for about 3 issues and basically NOTHING happened besides some bullrushing, even though both characters have much more powers which could have been used to win the fight.
Sentry fought WW Hulk and brawled it out, without using the great amount of all the various powers he could have used to defeat the Hulk, yet he didn't since it was decided by the writer that he shouldn't defeat him in the first place, but only stop him and even for that they had to depower the Sentry hugely for that particular fight.
Comic book fights are full of PIS, where characters suddenly forget about their advantages just for the sake of the fight and the outcome of it.
How could DC let Superman lose fights, since he is their main face-character?
The World War Hulk arc was full of PIS and even though many of the fights were written so that he was able to win them in the first place, you still wouldn't acknowledge the Hulk as more powerful then Sentry, maybe even Juggernaut, Strange, or maybe even Iron Man with prep.
Sentry is not such a character with a minimalistic powerset. He has so much he could offer and if someone would write him at his full potential, he would be UNSTOPPABLE, while Superman would even then have only his physical stats and the heat vision / ice breath.
This is not about Kyle and Oblivion, it's about Sentry and Void, who were written differently and had different showings in the past.
The problem is that I'm looking at a stable Sentry, while you're lowballing him because of the time where he was restrained by the Bendis-force.
It may be weird now, but take a look at the "What If #200 Osborn Won Siege". It is only a What If, but probably one of the What If's where you could actually believe it, since you see the 616 Uatu acknowledge the events from there.
The Sentry there is basically something a stable Sentry would be pulling off, if in control of his powers. Cutting through Thor the same way like through butter? That's huge.
And Silver Surfer > Superman, if Silver Surfer is serious about the fight and uses everything under his dispossal, but you're probably imagining the fight in a comic-like way, where Superman defeats Silver Surfer in a boring slugfest, basically the same way all the comics are written nowdays, where fights are over after 6 panels and basically nothing was showcased, just not to piss off the fans.
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Dec 6th, 2011 05:27 PM
