He's definitely more agile than Vader. Wasn't Ahsoka jumping all around him? Not to mention Mace is tier 9 as a combatant, whereas I'm not sure Vader belongs there.
However, Vader's edge against Mace in Canon in the Force might be quite a bit larger than it was in Canon. Unless I'm missing something that Canon Mace has to his credit, Vader can just ragdoll if the situation gets sour.
What are you talking about? He's in the same tier as Sidious per Gillard, and since the amp thing doesn't exist if we're not taking the RotS novel, then Mace did contend with Sidious.
The only defense is that, of course, Sidious may have held back to varying degrees.
Anyway, he wrote the fights. You can't dismiss him because you don't like him, lol.
2. That doesn't directly mean that Mace didn't win; it leaves it open for discussion. Besides, I never said Mace beat Sidious. I said he could contend, which he did.
And using Gillard's quotes isn't a best idea at the moment. Anyway, of we are using outdated quotes of Gillard, then we should use outdated quotes of Lucas at first place. And Vader again will be just a shadow of his former self.
2. To unspecified extents. Though even holistically, Mace is in Yoda and Sidious' league.
3. I didn't say that. I said an amp isn't suggested anywhere, which it isn't. Unless you can prove that such an amp exists, then, well, it doesn't. Simple.
4. If you're dismissing Gillard quotes for no reason, I can do the same to the same show that has Anakin struggle with Senators
1. So your interpretation of what's good or appropriate for Canon, and because his word isn't binding (nobody's is). As I said, you need something stronger than that.
2. Yeah. He has a few quotes labelling him as the Order's best, and he's in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious per Gillard.
3. It's not an argument for ignorance. It's up to you to prove that there was an amp. Otherwise, what reason would I have to believe such a thing exists? You yourself said that the novel doesn't count unless it aligns with the films - which doesn't depict any sort of amplification or anything.
4. A Canon work that occasionally brings in things that aren't consistent with any other SW media?
Gillard wrote the film fights, which form the entire basis for canon. The fact that his stances are supported by the RotS novel means that Lucas, Stover and Gillard are all aligned on certain facts which you're refusing to accept because you don't think they're binding. That's too bad for you.
I mean, at the very least, there should be something to the contrary in order for you to make an argument against such a stance (or ignore it). And I'm not seeing anything to the contrary here. What exactly is questionable about this? I'm not saying it's irrevocable, but it at least shifts the burden of proof onto the opposition.
Last edited by SunRazer on Oct 20th, 2016 at 12:04 PM
1. No I don't, it's not Canon and he has no say, authority or involvement in ongoing Canon (unlike say Filoni, or Pablo Hidalgo). So why should I take his word over what I'm seeing on screen?
2. So he's better than Yoda?
3. It is, you've proposed a false dilemma, or rather:
If a proposition has not been proved, then it cannot be considered true and must therefore be considered false.
My stance is that the facts of that fight have not been confirmed, and in particular we do not know whether or not Vaapad is in play. Therefore we cannot assume that it was not and that therefore Mace legitimately contended with Sidious.
4. A cheap, tacky excuse. And I have no idea why you are falling back on Lucas and the RotS novel, who state that Vaapad was in fact in play. And I did provide alternative evidence:To which I'd add that he was also unable to push back Maul, despite having Secura for back up.
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Last edited by Beniboybling on Oct 20th, 2016 at 12:14 PM
1. Maybe because what you're seeing on screen was done by him?
2. Didn't say that. But he has a few quotes suggesting that, which nevertheless denotes an extremely high level of skill. And again, Gillard suggests he's on their level.
Talzin's fight against Mace seemed to be mostly comrprised strength contests and wild swings that he dodged.
3. There is no proposition. I'm not proposing anything other than Mace contending with Sidious, which I hope you can prove for yourself. It's not an argument of ignorance to deduce that based solely on the film and website. The entire notion of Vaapad's properties come from Legends sources to begin with.
4. Even if you think it's cheap, what makes Talzin so unskilled? Aren't you one of those who defends her SoD #4 showing? And then there's the stuff I said above.
As for the Maul feat, who said he was unable to push back Maul? One still-motion panel depiction of the fight?
Although if you want to take "current/new material" over older ones, then that's fine. That means I know I can wank Dooku in discussions with you
Last edited by SunRazer on Oct 20th, 2016 at 12:28 PM
Oct 19th, 2016 10:34 AM
