I suppose the most impressive aspect of Manhattan's power comes in the way of secondary sources and whatnot.
-Mxy stating that Manhattan was more powerful than himself.
-Superman reiterating that Manhattan > Mxy.
-Luthor stating that Manhattan was the most powerful being he'd ever encountered.
-Manhattan's power being used to stalemate Perpetua.
etc.
As I've said before: if you take the above at face value, then the list of beings in Marvel's history who could conceivably defeat Manhattan is very short.
This is basically the answer I was expecting. He doesn't have any fts so why are we giving him the edge here? I don't think using statements is a way of debating. If so, I have a list of statement fts I need to start posting.
Different creative teams disagreeing with each other impacts the validity of feats as well though (some authors are much more grounded than others). And a statement that says “character A > character B” is not hyperbole.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
No, really. He disabled Pee Retcon Beyonder with his voice, and IG Thanos inhibited his power. If emotional control doesn't get a saving throw even for high end abstract level beings, an wooden plank like Dr. Manhattan wouldn't know what to do if forced to feel something.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Because it was repeated ad-nauseam that Martian Manhunter and Daxamites are more powerful than Superman.
That's why.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Character A still need fts. Manhattan has done absolutely nothing, so what ways are we going to come up with him beating someone like Beyonder? I'm guessing you can say he can erase him from existence but then, all I need to ask is "show me him doing this, especially to someone as powerful as Beyonder". You won't be able to show me anything.
Just because one statement or a set of statements are contradicted by feats or other statements, does not mean that no statements can be used to draw connections when said statements are not contradicted. It”s called weighing the evidence.
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
In Manhattan's case, I don't see an issue with using statements, as nothing on panel explicitly contradicts them.
Mxy stated that Manhattan was more power than himself, and Superman reiterated this in following issues. Luthor then stated that Manhattan was above ALL beings that he had encountered up to that point(which would include Mxy.) Manhattan's power was then used to stalemate Perpetua. Etc.
Personally, I take those statements as fact. And since there are only a scant few characters in Marvel that I'd place =/> Mxy, there are even less that I'd put above Manhattan.
__________________
Last edited by Galan007 on Feb 7th, 2022 at 04:15 PM
Character A does not need feats to prove superiority to other characters he has statements over. For example, if character A has 10 statements stating he is more powerful than character B, and no feats to contradict those statements, we would take the statements at face value.
Feats can either prove or disprove the statements for character A. But when there are no feats for character A to contradict the statements, we default to the statements. Many of the same problems people have with statements apply to feats as well (e.g. one author thinks Odin can melt galaxies while another author thinks Odin is planet level, which then leaks into the writing of Odin”s feats by those authors).
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
If Cyclops has statements saying he can bust moons apart (Carver's example), do we accept it? No. Why? Because we have plenty of statements proving otherwise.
If Manhattan has statements saying XYZ, do we accept it? That depends.
If we have feats proving otherwise, then no.
If we have no feats proving otherwise.....why not?
Thus, the onus is on Carv/the person disputing the statement, to provide scans showing why the statement is false.
Right. And I think this luxury has not been afforded to many of the Marvel cosmics.
For example, we have a million billion statements that the Living Tribunal is at the top of the cosmic hierarchy, as well as statements that this hierarchy directly correlates to power. This means we should be able to scale LT above any feat performed by any character/entity/artifact that scales below him in the cosmic hierarchy. For example, the UN instantly destroying and recreating the Multiverse, Chaos King, the battle between Galactus and Scrier/Other, the combined host of Celestials that created the first Multiverse and obliterated a large portion of the First Firmament, any and all of the IG feats, etc.
There”s also the scaling in Secret Wars (2015), where the LT puts up a better fight against the Beyonders than a literal endless/infinite number of Celestials and Universal Abstracts. Point being, there”s a lot of ways to scale Marvel cosmics to Multiversal and beyond without them actually having to demonstrate “Multiverse-snapping” capabilities (we afford this same luxury to characters such as Dr. M and Perpetua).
__________________ ”You presume limits to my power. There are none.”
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Feb 7th, 2022 03:35 AM
