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Originally posted by leonheartmm
ughhhh, isee everyone's caught gs's essay writing syndrome where they cant seem to be able to get a point through, {and yes gs, every thread u post in does seem to be to save pheonix's ass or bash a pheonix hater}

just like "some"{cough GS} people on these forums, people in these threads have started to take any and every wanda feat at face value and interpret it in the highest possible way. wanda is nowhere near that powerful in reality. affecting the multiverse stuff she did is what PIS is all about, lets think about it for a second shall we. wanda is a mutant, a very powerful one, but not quiyte on par with the likes of hyperstorm, nate, cable and franklin. suddenly writers think up of ways in which she can affect the multiverse{or OMNIVERSE!} u know damn well that sumthing is incosistant/wrong here. odin, who is only a skyfather SHOOK the whole multiverse with a single punch once. now think about it, how many sky fathers are there, and how many beings ABOVE skyfathers there are in EVERY universe, are all of them potential universal affectors/destroyers?! hell if that was te case then LT would have quite a job on his hands wont he? u have to look at the AVERAGE power level that the writer gae to a character, and many factors that come into play like art, style, cannon/non cannon, low level feats of a character that contradict such power and most of all, PIS or even more what the writer/artist was trying to SHOW in those feats of the character and whether it was just a fanatic writer or whether the character was not supposed to be taken as above abstracts{the same idea in the second last pheonix retcon, dr strange, some silver surfer and x men/fantastic four comics{i.e. invisible woman single handedly killing a celestial} what ive seen is that most people just bring up the low end feats of the opposotion and high end feats of their characters {manipulated mostly in favour of their character} and wont listen to anythin else. this is not really the way to go.

now for this matcheup there are two very probable oputcomes depoending on the writer. 1st : wanda goes up against one celestial and gets her ass SO sorely beaten down that it leaves a permanent mark and puts her in her place
2: the celestials think theyr supreme and try to attack her to show their superiority by killing her with a single raise of a finger, but suddenly wanda says some impressive one liners and kills a few and proves to them{rather menacingly} that the INHABITANTS of a UNIVERSE are nuthin compared to one who can destroy the entire MULTIVERSE{in bolds just like they do it in marvel and dc}

both are very logical outcomes , if its an x men or house of m xomic the 2nd scenario is probably true, if its a cosmic one like silver surfer/dr stange or sumthin than the first one is probably whats gonna happen, {see too much inconsisntency} and thas that.

{oh btw, ALL of franklins feats are FAR above what any celestial/ abstract has been shown to be able to do}

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Originally posted by Xplosive
Look, in short, as I see it, already young Fanklin showed power at least equal to Celestial. Celestials know, he hasnt close live up to the potential he has (and he already created pocket universe, so his potentail is beyond of what he showed). I see Wanda being above one Celestial, but against all, come one, she would be less than antz, its ridicoluos. Question, could she even beat Exitar, maybe, probably.
But by no means can Wanda even challenge Phoenix, come on! Jean was created, yes, but not Phoenix Force, PF wasnt created.
Wanda could never be even a little threat to Phoenix. Wanda is certainly one of the most powerful being ever shown in MU, but ceratinly not even a threat to the Phoenix.

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Originally posted by demigawd
I read it - it's your usual bunch of crap combined with scans that don't show anything. Face facts, GS, EVERY manifestation of Phoenix has shown vulnerability. Dark Phoenix was beaten by a laser, Phoenix I was beaten by Magneto, and later by a Magneto clone (who may very well be a creation of....ta daaa...WANDA), and later still had her "crown" disconnected and later still was in a terribly weakened state.

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Originally posted by Crimson Phoenix
Oh dear, looks like i made a big boo boo. I was inteding to write celestial, as in not celestials, as in not their entire race. Sorry for my stupid typing error. (against a whole race of celestials!!! wanda would be crushed)

In my opinion, Wanda would take it. She has shown that she is capable of universal reality manipulation, (omniversal reality manipulation still up for debate). If it was said franlin was on par with a celestial- wanda has shown that at the moment she has outdone franlkin in terms of power, so i'm gonna give this to wanda.

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Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, so Jean was created by not PF, eh? GS might take issue with that.

Wanda beats Jean Grey the psionic
Wanda beats Jean Grey as a Phoenix Avatar ("jgg!")
Wanda beats Jean Grey as Dark Phoenix ("laser!")
Wanda goes back in time and kills Xavier a la AOA (Jean Grey never becomes Phoenix)
Wanda stops the Big Bang from happening - no manifestation of the PF
Wanda destroys the White Hot Room - no more Phoenix Force

Tell me, is there any of the million or so versions of GS's Phoenix bullshit that I've left out? Wanda is eager to destroy!

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Originally posted by Xplosive
Look, Phoenix Force is asepct of God, so therefore all powerful it is and beyond creation. Jean is practicaly the one with the Phoenix Force, therefor Wanda is joke to Phoenix and Wanda doenst have the slightest chance of even threatening Phoenix.

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Uou, Magneto is more powerful than Phoenix, yes. Come on, you always keep mentioning that, Magneto defeating Phoenix doesnt mean shit and it means absolutely nohting.

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Originally posted by demigawd
Ah, so Jean was created by not PF, eh? GS might take issue with that.

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Originally posted by demigawd
Since the author has updated this...are we all agreed that Wanda beats one Celestial? Sounds like we are.

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Originally posted by demigawd
Jean Grey Phoenix does NOT equal Phoenix Force. Otherwise, if she were all powerful, would "jgg" have happened? Would she have needed to "let herself die" *cough*bullshit*cough* in order to bring herself back in the future? She's NOT all powerful, and if you acknowledge that the PF is all power, then you have to acknowledge that Jean isn't the Phoenix Force.

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Originally posted by demigawd
Except it happened. Twice. So what do you make of that?

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Originally posted by Xplosive
She wields the power of Phoenix Force.

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No one is taking that seriously, cause it means nothing.

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Originally posted by demigawd
So you're saying that it's happened, but you just choose to ignore it? Both times? What if it happens again? You'll ignore it again? What if it happens five more times?

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Originally posted by Xplosive
I would alwys ignore it, cause its just means nothing. Magneto is not 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000...........1 of Phoenix powers, so who how to take it seriosuly.

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Originally posted by demigawd
Because Phoenix is overrated and not all-powerful. And because power is nothing when there's not enough wisdom or control to use it. Phoenix's combat feats are less impressive than you believe. Look at the history of them. Fought Galactus to a draw, lost to Beyonder, "jgg", killed by laser, beaten by Proteus, etc. Yawn.

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Originally posted by Xplosive
Defeating Galactus, holding the universe in her hand, saving multiverse before McKryan Crystal, seeing every major cosmic kneeling before Phoenix, even Living Tribunal.
Tell me Demigawd, would Wanda defeat LT?

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Originally posted by demigawd
Because Phoenix is overrated and not all-powerful. And because power is nothing when there's not enough wisdom or control to use it. Phoenix's combat feats are less impressive than you believe. Look at the history of them. Fought Galactus to a draw, lost to Beyonder, "jgg", killed by laser, beaten by Proteus, etc. Yawn.

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Originally posted by demigawd
That NEVER happened. NOBODY kneeled before her. That was a visualization describing what Stranger was afraid could happen. That doesn't count as a feat in the slightest! C'mon now!

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Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat
Agreed

Excellent argument

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

ps: lest we forget jgg

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Originally posted by demigawd
The idea of taking averages is a wise one, but you also have to take into account powerups. You CAN'T use Wanda's averages when she's been specifically powered up - you have to reset the bar and use the new measurements for averages. That means any Wanda feats from Disassembled on become the new averages for current Wanda.

It has nothing to do with PIS.

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Originally posted by Xplosive
The point was that Marvel still clearly showed that Phoenix is the most powerful. Strange knew that no one could stop her, no one, everyone would be antz (that is why he was affraid, everyone could be stopped, even LT, but not Phoenix and he was affraid of that), even LT. Marvel clearly showed Phoenix is the most powerful.

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Originally posted by Fishy 500
Has she really had a power up ? I am yet to read Avengers disassembled, but i was under the impression thats she has realised the full potential of her powers ?